Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Phil H]

With Flemming, I really don't think we can make a final decision either way - as so often not enough evidence to compute.

Nevertheless, Caz, I think your logic is flawed when you argue:

The thing is, if we had a recorded height of 5' 1", would anyone now be arguing that 5' 11" or 6' 1" were more likely heights for a man, even in the LVP, therefore it was almost certainly a mistake?

First 5'1" would not be exceptionally short for a man - unless he had dwarfish features I doubt it would have attracted much attention or comment. (Queen Victoria herself was only 5' tall.) But an exceptionally TALL man does tend to stand out and stick in the memory - even today when people on the whole probably are taller on average.

But in the case of Joe Flemming there is another element. The absence of any mention by Barnett (who might, of course, never have seen his predecessor and rival for Mary's affaections) or in any other account, that Flemming was exceptionally tall. We have only the register and I believe it is thus possible to put a question mark over the height. Script has been reviewed I think in the case of Kosminski where a squiggle was taken to read "2" but actually meant something else. (I'll have to look up the detail.)

If Flemming WERE 6'7" of course (as others have frequently said) it must make him somewhat less likely to be "Jack" - but he is IMHO worthy of study as a possible killer of Kelly since there are contemporary allegations of him being physically or verbally violent towards her.

Phil

[The Good Michael]

But in the case of Joe Flemming there is another element. The absence of any mention by Barnett (who might, of course, never have seen his predecessor and rival for Mary's affaections) or in any other account, that Flemming was exceptionally tall.

How would this come into the conversation? If questions had been asked to describe him, sure, but Barnett only mentions Fleming in passing.

He mentioned Morganstone, whom he has never met, and Fleming and he didn't describe either one. I have a friend who's 6'8 and teaches in japan. I always say that I have a friend in Japan. I never say I have a giant friend in Japan. It doesn't come into the equation and I am free from police questioning, so why doesn't it? because there's no need.

Mike

[DVV]

Quite funny. And dishonest.
It's not only about Barnett, it's also about Mary's friends. And Mrs McCarthy as well.
The height is one of the détails that come first, during conversations between girls about their boyfriends.

Obviously, Barnett and Venturney said all they could remember about Fleming - and about Morganstern in the case of Barnett.

Especially when we know that Mary told her friend Julia about Fleming's physical violence, how can one believe she had not mentioned how incredibly tall he was ?

Believing something is nice. Pretending to believe is something else.

Who was recently making an "educated guess" on another thread ?

[The Good Michael]

Quite funny. And dishonest.
It's not only about Barnett, it's also about Mary's friends. And Mrs McCarthy as well.

Dishonest? Julia never mentioned Fleming. She mentioned someone named Joe. And she never saw him. According to what we can glean from Barnett, he never saw Fleming either.

Vanturney: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger. She said he was huge!

Coroner: Never mind that, what about...

Vanturney: Yeah, a regular Frankenstein's monster.

Coroner: And when did you last....

Vanturney: Did I say this guy, who I never met, who may or may not have been a costermonger, though Barnett says differently, was a giant of a man?

Coroner: I'm afraid you need to....

Vanturney: First thing out of Mary's mouth "Joe is a huge man."

Coroner: yet you can't remember exactly what his profession was and don;t know where he came from.

Vanturney. Who gives a rat's arse? This guy was two meters of man!

Coroner: all right thank you for...

Vanturney: A beanpole too. Weight 13 stone when healthy.

Coroner: Yes.. Guard! Come get this woman.

Vanturney: A right down big 'un 'e was.

Yeah I can see where this would come into the inquest testimony effortlessly.

Mike

[DVV]

How would this come into the conversation? If questions had been asked to describe him, sure, but Barnett only mentions Fleming in passing.

He mentioned Morganstone, whom he has never met, and Fleming and he didn't describe either one. I have a friend who's 6'8 and teaches in japan. I always say that I have a friend in Japan. I never say I have a giant friend in Japan. It doesn't come into the equation and I am free from police questioning, so why doesn't it? because there's no need.

Mike

How wrong.

Was Barnett asked about Fleming ?
No.
Was he asked about his address ?
No. But Barnett said he lived in Bethnal Green road.
Was he asked about Fleming's trade ?
No. But Barnett said he was a mason's plasterer.

Was Venturney asked about Mary's ex-boyfriend ?
No.
Was she asked about the 'other Joe ill-using her' ?
No.
Was she asked about him giving the deceased money or not ?
No.

Therefore both of them told everything they could remember. And they could not remember how tall he was.

[DVV]

My last post answers your post 49, Mike.

Your arguments are proven valueless.

[DVV]

Everody knew he could see Deauville from Trafalgar Square.
But the Coroner forgot to ask Barnett.

[DVV]

educated guess

Mary was once about to marry him.
That we know from Mrs MacCarthy.
Who could remember the guy was in the building trade.
But not his height - kept secret.
Of course, it's so easy to keep gigantism secret.
Curiously, Fleming used to visit Mary, but nobody ever noticed such a tall fellow around Miller's Court.
My educated guess is that he used to crawl or walk on his knees.
Which was just routine in Spitalfields.

[The Good Michael]

Curiously, Fleming used to visit Mary, but nobody ever noticed such a tall fellow around Miller's Court.

David,

I just finished going through every inquest ever recorded beginning in 1885 and ending in 1957, and there was only one mention of height. It was the infamous Dwarf Mime Gang from '07 who paralyzed people with fear long enough to rob banks. The height was important because it made people stare, and the miming of locked doors kept the pursuit to a minimum.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

How wrong.

Was Barnett asked about Fleming ?
No.
Was he asked about his address ?
No. But Barnett said he lived in Bethnal Green road.
Was he asked about Fleming's trade ?
No. But Barnett said he was a mason's plasterer.

Was Venturney asked about Mary's ex-boyfriend ?
No.
Was she asked about the 'other Joe ill-using her' ?
No.
Was she asked about him giving the deceased money or not ?
No.

Therefore both of them told everything they could remember. And they could not remember how tall he was.

They never met him. I know you much better than they knew Joe Fleming and Joe, and I have no idea how tall you are.

Mike

[DVV]

Here are some other arguments you may find useful, Mike :

- Being taller than Annie Chapman, and Irish, MJK never realized how tall was her fiancé ;

-She was ashamed to confess she was fond of Peter Crouch ;

-It was Fleming's feet that was burned in the grate on Nov 9 (while he was sleeping).

As for my height, if I was 6'7, Getcheri would have probably told you, although we were never about to marry.

Aydellem ?

[Lechmere]

DVV
Plasterer. Dock labourer. Good health. More than 2m and less than 70kg.
Venturney, Barnett and Mrs MacCarthy forgetting this "detail". (Or was it MJK ?)
Can anyone think of a reason why they didn’t mention it?
Try this one - the tall Flemming never had any connection to Kelly?

Especially when we know that Mary told her friend Julia about Fleming's physical violence,
No, the reference was to someone called Joe. Was that Flemming or Fleming? Who knows.

Any case that hangs on flatly contradicting what is clearly written in an official record is thread bare.

[DVV]

Ah, I see.
You have conducted extensive and thorough studies of asylum records and can assure a poor ignorant like Debra Arif that such little mistakes never happen. She'll be grateful I'm sure.

As for Fleming or Flemming, you are making much ado for nothing. His birth certificate spells his name Fleming, while at the inquest they wrote Flemming. Of course, the Coroner never asked Barnett to spell the name.
So you can forget that until you find a plasterer from Bethnal Green called Joseph Flemming in his birth certificate...

If you have finished to work on asylum records, I mean. Don't tackle too many things at once.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

I could see Hutchinson actually being Fleming, and I could see Fleming being the one Mary mentioned to Julia that she was seeing at the same time as Joe Barnett. The one that occasionally treated her ill.

I can also see the possibility that we have another, unidentified, "Joe".

The later institutionalization isnt enough to consider the man dangerous to Mary per se, nor is there any definite reference to this Joe being someone Mary once lived with. Maybe Joe Fleming was hopeful about a reconciliation when Barnett left....maybe he could have cared less what Mary Kelly was doing with herself.

There are far to few answers to conclude that Fleming must have been the Joe referred to. For myself I wonder about Joe Isaacs...a man with an astrakan coat....a nearby address he vacates without notice the night of the murder,...and someone mentally ill.

Cheers all

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

there is no doubt that Barnett's "Flemming" is Joseph Fleming who died in Claybury.
And little, very little indeed, that Venturney's Joe was the same individual.

Cheers amigo