Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[Rubyretro]

=Malcolm X;198875]

sorry but i'm still not convinced with this at all, JTR would have needed somewhere where he could store his gear, read newspapers at night, gloat, and be very secretive/private.

A wife would never have allowed that, Malcolm. She would have kept on and on pestering him, until he had confessed all. She would have noticed the tiniest blood spot on his clothes

but in this place he's be disturbed by other residents all the tme

,
If he lived with a house full of kids, as Mr Lechmere would have you believe,
he may have dreamed of moving to the Victoria Home where he could sit about and read the paper all night, pop out for a pint whenever he chose, or rustle up his favourite dish of curried organs and only have washing up for one.

i.e they'd be continually wanting to talk to him, thus they'd be way too nosey, they would probably go through his belongings too, when he shot off to the toilet, or went to make a cup of coffee

.....
This is the role of Mrs Lechmere/Cross ! (you've never been married Malcolm, I can tell..)

``Daddy's playing with his toy Aircraft again``, but in a busy lodging house all of this will be impossible.

In a busy lodging house, none of the other men would think it strange if he wanted to be alone to play with his "toy aircraft", a wife just wouldn't understand..

thus in my opinion, JTR would not be living in a dormitory all week long with loads of others

.
It would be by far the best place be just one weirdo amongst many and having the luxury of doing what he wanted with his spare time !

if i was JTR and visiting Whitechapel, which it looks like he definitely did ( i.e the murders suddenly started/ suddenly stopped) then i would never stay in a busy lodging house with loads of others, this is rediculous, i would rent a large room only, because in here i can store all my stuff plus be as private as i want.

Only if you could afford it, Malcolm ! You might not have the choice...

GH is highly suspicious

,
YES. He certainly is.

PLUS, this GH that went to the police definitely lived in Victoria homes, because this is the hardest thing of all to lie about, so this weakens him as JTR.

NO. It makes him a very good candidate.

[DVV]

he is therefore not Toppy or any other guy in London called GH

Absolutely, Malcolm.

And nobody will ever find George, for he was Joseph.

[Sally]

Where's this census entry then?

[Lechmere]

Sally
My sincere apologies. My mind was playing tricks on me about Fleming in the 1891 census. I was mixing it up with his infirmary admission entry in 1892.

Fleming was listed as living at the Victoria Home in June 1892 when he was admitted to the City of London Workhouse Infirmary on Bow Road.
This is the 6 feet 7 inch Joe Fleming who was also listed as a dock labourer.
(See thread The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming – transcription, page 15, post 148).

This Fleming (a dock labourer) was also admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary Union from the Victoria Home in November 1889 with an inflamed leg.
He had settlement for 14 months – meaning he lived or claimed to have lived within Whitechapel for 14 months. You theoretically needed settlement of at least 12 months to be able to claim relief.
It is possible he made the length of settlement up and wasn’t living at the Victoria Home from September 1888.
However it seems he was living continuously in the Victoria Home for the entire period.

I checked the Booth papers some months ago (as you know Sally) and it seems that many inmates were long term residents. There were usually only a few beds available for daily casuals. So it is by no means implausible that Fleming had been there from September 1888 to June 1892.

However he would have been part of the woodwork.
Could he have passed himself off as Hutchinson? While being known (presumably) as Kelly’s ex?
And being 6 foot 7 inches tall and a dock labourer could he have been Kelly’s ex anyway?
Wouldn’t he have got sussed out at some point?

And being 6 foot 7 inches tall could he have been Hutchinson?
Certainly he couldn’t have been Lewis’s not tall but stout wide-awake man.
Unless he was walking on his knees.
And wouldn’t the police have ‘checked Hutchinson out’ and sussed out that he wasn’t called Hutchinson but Fleming?
And what about that sketch of Hutchinson? Now I think it is a generic picture of some bloke lurking on the background, but I know that at least some Hutchinsonites think it is a true life sketch of Hutch. He ain’t 6 foot 7 inches tall! Also what if Fleming’s dear old mamma recognised his visage (if it was a true likeness)?

The whole Fleming equals Hutchinson thing doesn’t stand up to a moment’s scrutiny.

[Lechmere]

Frau Retro
“Be very wary of that nasty Lechmere”
You make me sound like the Jabberwocky – an interesting link to a Ripper suspect whose threads I seldom inhabit.

But what is this:
“A wife would never have allowed that, Malcolm. She would have kept on and on pestering him, until he had confessed all. She would have noticed the tiniest blood spot on his clothes.”
What? While inspecting them nightly for lipstick on the collar? I’m not sure a carman’s garbs would have been that pristine in the first place, mind.

- they'd be continually wanting to talk to him, thus they'd be way too nosey, they would probably go through his belongings too, when he shot off to the toilet, or went to make a cup of coffee -
“This is the role of Mrs Lechmere/Cross ! (you've never been married Malcolm, I can tell..)”
Hmmm what price trust?

“In a busy lodging house, none of the other men would think it strange if he wanted to be alone to play with his "toy aircraft", a wife just wouldn't understand.”
Oh dear, where’s me Airfix kit?

“and having the luxury of doing what he wanted with his spare time!”
What? Without a nagging wife in his ear?

Crikey O’Reilly what must chez Retro be like? It sounds bad enough for Herr Retro to throw himself off le pont d’Avignon.
However back off topic, seeing as how you are infatuated with Mrs Lechmere’s doings, I would not suggest that Charles Cross took body parts back to Doveton Street. He could have read newspapers at home though, but then Hutchinson could also read them in the common room or whatever it was called at the Victoria Home, which stocked newspapers.

I would suggest that most potential suspects would have difficulty secreting human organs wherever they lived. If the organs were kept and not discarded before returning to their residence then a different location would be required for storage.

We know there were about 600,000 working horses in London but hardly any grooms listed in the census. This is clearly because most people who worked with horses did their own grooming – although I have no doubt that there was also a need for the occasional casual groom here and there as well.
A man who worked with horses would have tackle, harnesses, stuff to keep the leather in good trim, grooming equipment and so forth. Most probably this kit was kept in some sort of cubby hole in the stable where his horse was kept. A man who had been employed by the same firm for quite a few years would probably be trusted to do his job without close supervision. I would guess that a long term member of staff would not have tolerated other people tampering with his kit.
Charles Cross had been a carman at Pickfords by Broad Street Station for over 20 years. All the murders took place at a time when he could have committed them on his way to work and on his way to his horse in the stable at the Broad Street depot.
If he was the culprit he had a ready made place to keep body parts, at least for a while.
If it is necessary for the Ripper to have disappeared for an hour or whatever between Mitre Square and Goulston Street, then his stable could have been a possible detour to stash body parts.

Thank you for reminding me about this Ruby - But back to Hutchinson-Fleming!

[Wickerman]

.. JTR would have needed somewhere where he could store his gear, read newspapers at night, gloat, and be very secretive/private.
[..edit..]
thus in my opinion, JTR would not be living in a dormitory all week long with loads of others.
[..edit..]
PLUS, this GH that went to the police definitely lived in Victoria homes, because this is the hardest thing of all to lie about, so this weakens him as JTR.

We might have our disagreements Malcolm but you are right on the money with that post.
The killer, whoever he was, lived apart from the crowd.
It isn't just a case of the killer being secretive, his 'madness' requires a lifestyle which if noticed by others would give him away. He will need his hideaway for all the points you raise. He has bloodstained clothing to wash, knives to clean, trophy's to display, newspaper cuttings to stash, perhaps trinkets from each victim. This type of killer needs his own space, he will probably be controlling, perhaps even "obsessive-compulsive", he will not tollerate sharing his private life & habits.
Any dosser can hide away a bloodstained cuff, or a knife, but there is far more to this killer than the ability to hide things from nosey boarders.

Thats my two cents...

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

=Malcolm X;198875]
A wife would never have allowed that, Malcolm. She would have kept on and on pestering him, until he had confessed all. She would have noticed the tiniest blood spot on his clothes

Might I suggest you familiarize yourself with the recent case of Major Russell Williams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Williams

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/article1962279.ece

Most of your objections are demonstrably incorrect.

These types are domineering & controlling to the extent that members of their own family (in this case, a wife) dare not question his actions, and are required to make allowances for anything that might normally be classed as unusual.
It might be the case that you need to be a victim of such control to truely appreciate how seemingly ordinary people end up turning a blind eye to what might normally be described as questionable activities.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Wickerman
Your second of the two above posts slightly contradicts the first - only slightly though.
I think an obsessive compulsive (and that is how I see the Ripper) would often live with other people - they often do and dominate them in the way you describe in your second post. They make their own space.
Certainly if the Ripper was of humble background, which I think is most likely to be the case, then literally creating his own space would have been financially impossible. Although there were occupations where the person would be solitary a lot of the time, and with maybe a regular semi private 'space' of their own - maybe with just a horse to talk to - that sort of thing.

[Lechmere]

Madam Retro
I almost missed this:
“It is absolutely risible that any lodging house would deny it's lodgers the right to accept honest work at any time that work was offered; They evidently offered a pass. Men would leave at an extremely early hour to stand in line and apply for casual work. They might even leave for days and come back (as shown by Hutchinson's looking for work in Romford).”

We don’t know he went to Romford for work, but we do know the Victoria Home's rules. They did not allow access to the dormitories in the day time so night workers would not chose to live there. It is as simple as that. An early morning worker would be a different matter – but it was one thing to get out and another to get back in – without a special pass.
They could of course leave for a few days and come back. But where would Hutchinson be in between?
However all this coming and going and irregular entry to the stolid Victoria Home would just have drawn attention to him had Hutchinson been the Ripper.

In the Booth papers is an interview with a Mr Pateman, a Missionary to the Spitalfields Lodging Houses, conducted in 1898, in which it is stated that:
“The best houses in the neighbourhood are the Victoria Homes, and in these the management is strictest”.

A separate interview with the Manager of the Commercial Street Victoria Home also conducted in 1898, it is stated that:
“The doors are closed at 12 midnight and although men are not hurried, the kitchen is cleared and expected to be cleared, by about 12.30. There have 2 night porters but they do not profess to take men who want to sleep in the day. This makes management simpler and helps to keep then free from doubtful customers.”

The bed makers reported uncleanliness, and the old time inmates almost policed the newcomers – who could be ‘smelled out’.
Also it should be noted that they took the names of inmates – so Hutchinson must have been registered there as Hutchinson. This is another reason that makes it implausible for Hutchinson to have been Fleming, as in 1889 Fleming registered at the Whitechapel Infirmary as Fleming resident at the Victoria Home, seemingly since September 1888.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
Your second of the two above posts slightly contradicts the first - only slightly though.
I think an obsessive compulsive (and that is how I see the Ripper) would often live with other people - they often do and dominate them in the way you describe in your second post. They make their own space.

Lechmere.
Correct, they do live with family but that family is dominated by the father (the killer).
In a common lodging-house an individual boarder needs to be wary and always on the alert for other boarders looking into their possessions. Living among people he cannot control puts him on the defensive. This is contrary to his personality, rather like oil & water. He is the dominant one, not the one dominated. He needs to be the one who sets the rules then he can relax.
This OCD-type killer will not place himself among those who he cannot control.
This is why such a killer can live with family (submissives), but not with his peers, where he could not relax and have privacy.

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

I think there have been some very interesting points raised -although most of them are pure speculation. Since we don't know who the killer was, we can't really make a call on his personality. Indeed, even if we did know who he was, and the details of his life on paper, human beings are so complexe that it would still be impossible to know his different facets and his inner life.

Correct, they do live with family but that family is dominated by the father (the killer).

At that epoch, the Family may have been dominated by the father financially
and in the role conferred on him by society. In reality, a man may have been totally dominated by a wife, a mother, or even an older son, in essence.

In a common lodging-house an individual boarder needs to be wary and always on the alert for other boarders looking into their possessions

True, of course. But equally true of living in a family house. It might be a very modern thing to repect the privacy of other people in your house, and not go touching their possessions...it is possible that people at the time had no such scruples. Also, whilst I would never in my life want to go through my husbands mobile 'phone or emails, I have female (and a male -come to think of it) friends, who have confessed to me in private to having done just that,
and they should know better. So I don't think that living in a family home, as opposed to a common lodging house, would afford any less guarantee for the killer having a 'secret life'.

. Living among people he cannot control puts him on the defensive. This is contrary to his personality, rather like oil & water. He is the dominant one, not the one dominated. He needs to be the one who sets the rules then he can relax.

Maybe, you've hit in on the head, Jon. Maybe the killer felt intense frustration
at feeling that he had no control over his own life, and having to comply to the strict rules and regulations of a boarding house, he would not be able to
openly control people around him (having no authority), and so he enjoyed a
secret sense of power in murdering, enjoying his own publicity, and sowing fear on the streets?

This OCD-type killer will not place himself among those who he cannot control

.
But he may not have had the choice.

[Rubyretro]

They did not allow access to the dormitories in the day time so night workers would not chose to live there

.
Not 'night workers' perhaps -but 'casual workers' might be offered any sort of job. I can't think that a lodging house would deny them the chance to accept honest work.

They could of course leave for a few days and come back. But where would Hutchinson be in between?

YES. Where would Hutchinson be ? 'Walking about all night', perhaps, or dossing on the stairs of open buildings such as 29 Hanbury Street ?

However all this coming and going and irregular entry to the stolid Victoria Home would just have drawn attention to him had Hutchinson been the Ripper.

Not if other men were doing the same thing, and not if he was also absent on nights where there were not murders. Not if he appeared to be a normal, upright citizen on the surface.

In the Booth papers is an interview with a Mr Pateman, a Missionary to the Spitalfields Lodging Houses, conducted in 1898, in which it is stated that:
[I]“The best houses in the neighbourhood are the Victoria Homes, and in these the management is strictest”.[/

So in a sense it would make the best lodging house for JTR to 'hide' in, and might give him more confidence when presenting himself as a witness.

A separate interview with the Manager of the Commercial Street Victoria Home also conducted in 1898, it is stated that:
“The doors are closed at 12 midnight and although men are not hurried, the kitchen is cleared and expected to be cleared, by about 12.30. There have 2 night porters but they do not profess to take men who want to sleep in the day. This makes management simpler and helps to keep then free from doubtful customers.”

I think that I have already addressed these points above.

The bed makers reported uncleanliness, and the old time inmates almost policed the newcomers – who could be ‘smelled out’.

So someone who needed to obsessively clean his clothes and polish his boots would not stand out as unusual. He would have a great reason for frequent washing.

Also it should be noted that they took the names of inmates – so Hutchinson must have been registered there as Hutchinson. This is another reason that makes it implausible for Hutchinson to have been Fleming, as in 1889 Fleming registered at the Whitechapel Infirmary as Fleming resident at the Victoria Home, seemingly since September 1888.

I agree.

[Rubyretro]

seemingly ordinary people end up turning a blind eye to what might normally be described as questionable activities.

This would equally apply to living amongst many men in a boarding house.

[Rubyretro]

The killer, whoever he was, lived apart from the crowd.

But amongst the crowd would be the best place to hide.

It isn't just a case of the killer being secretive, his 'madness' requires a lifestyle which if noticed by others would give him away

.
Whoever he was, he must have had the same sort of 'madness' as Vincent Tabak, for example. Impossible to see on the surface.

[Malcolm X]

sorry, i'm still not convinced by your counter- arguements, i used to belong to the Solent Model boat club, and many of our members spend hours on end away from their families, playing with their model boats down in their garden sheds or inside etc.... i think their wives are pleased to be honest !

they build things like 8ft titanics, huge WW2 Battleships etc, in a garden shed like this you could hide evidence easily, simply because most wives aren't foolish enough to interfere !

my father was like this too, he was always upstairs painting or making stuff in his garage, we had no idea what he was up to most of the time, his room was like an Alladin's cave full of junk.

when P.Sutcliffe returned home one of the first things he did was to put his clothes in the washing machine, his wife had no idea that he was a killer, his murder weapons were in his car

the easiest people to lie to are your family, but strangers are far more observant and aware of you, JTR living in a residents home, with no bolt hole, or another room somewhere else, is just plain rediculous.

he has to hide at the very least
1....his knife and sharpening stone
2....his trophy organs !!!!!!!
3....Sailor boy stuff etc
4....clean rags
5....probably newspaper articles, quite a few!
6....his written notes, scribbles, cartoons
7....Holy Bible !

the last 3 is me just giving you examples, but you know what i mean

he has to be extremely careful about his movements and especially between Stride and Eddowes, because between these two it looks like that he returned home to change.

he has to take care that he doesn't show too much interest in the JTR CASE and he doesn't read too many newspapers/ go a bit odd etc.....which he will do for sure, this will be very hard to hide.

a serial killer like this will be dark/ odd and at times extremely private, this will mean nothing to family members, but it'll definitely look odd to strangers.

this is one of the major points that weakens D' Onston and this is the same for GH staying at the Victoria homes