Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[Wickerman]

Suppose Fleming was known as "George Hutchinson" in the VH, how could the police "stumble on his true identity" ? He was a perfect nobody, wasn't he ?

Hi Dave.
Yes, Hutchinson was a nobody, so far as we can tell.
What I was trying to recall, perhaps mistakenly, was that Fleming/Evans was known to police due to violence & assaults?, or that he had at least left a paper trail with the police and/or institutions?

I was thinking that if Fleming/Evans was known to police why would he pretend to be someone else, especially in a high profile case as this.
The police must have checked Hutchinson's background, what would they find if he truely was a nobody?

Recall, even though Maxwell's statement was highly controversial the police did check out her story. They found the shop where she went to buy the milk that morning just to confirm her claim.
I feel confident the police were not likely to take the word of a witness, even Hutchinson, without being able to establish who he was especially as he claims to have stood right outside Kelly's door while the killer is inside.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Yes it is not credible to present a case that is based on the police failing to 'check out' Hutchinson - and for him to pass muster he would have to clear those tests - eg where he had worked (and he did work, he just wasn't in regular employment), where he was from (Norwood), and so forth. The police regularly checked out the lodging houses so he may have had cast iron alibis for the previous murders anyway.

The Victoria Home Fleming was from Bethnal Green. Hutchinson went about on at least two days in the company of policemen looking for the A-man. What of some geezer had gone up to him and said 'Wotcher Fleming - wot you doing wiv the Rozzer'. The game would have been up pretty sharpish.

[Rubyretro]

I actually think that nearly all the details Barnett repeated about Kelly’s life were nonsense as she lied to him – and I base this on the fact that none of it can be substantiated. I doubt she went out with someone called Joe Fleming.

[/QUOTE]

I've made this remark before, but will just have to keep making it as long as it keeps coming up :

We have two people -Barnett and Kelly- living together in one tiny space.
They have no TV, no radio, no books, no boardgames, and precious little entertainment beyond singing or reading the paper together. They must have spent hours and hours talking to each other....far more than many couples do today.

I certainly think that Mary embroidered her accounts of herself to appear more interesting, but how could she possibly have kept up an entirely fictitious story without tripping herself up all the time trying to remember what she'd said before ? What an effort !...for what ? It's not as if she was trying to make out that she was a virgin before she met him or something..

Furthermore, Barnett and Kelly seem to have been close friends above and beyond their sexual relationship. Barnett was still visiting her after the break up, and was worried about not being able to help her out with some money.

Surely he would not consider the woman a friend if he thought that she
didn't trust him enough to be honest about herself ?

So what has come down to us is certainly a mixture of fact and fiction..or
glamourised truth. The fact that it is unsubstantiated only means that we have yet to substantiate it....but in the great scheme of time, we've only been looking for a very short while, and probably in the wrong place.

I would guess that Mary had lived with a Joe Fleming. And I don't believe at all
that Hutch & Fleming were the same person.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

What I was trying to recall, perhaps mistakenly, was that Fleming/Evans was known to police due to violence & assaults?, or that he had at least left a paper trail with the police and/or institutions?
Regards, Jon S.

No, Fleming had been caught as a burglar in 1872 with one Thomas Cox. How could the police remember that in 1888 ?
More importantly, neither Barnett nor Venturney did know he was dossing at the VH at the time of the murders.

Had there been no similar murders in the area prior to that of MJK, surely the police would have tried to interrogate him. But since it wasn't considered a domestic affair but the work of Jack, the ex-fiancé who used to "visit and ill-use" her did not arouse much interest.

[DVV]

Hello Ruby

And I don't believe at all
that Hutch & Fleming were the same person.

Not sure you should be that flat, since you believe Hutch did it.

Hutch said he knew Mary for about 3 years, ie : before she moved to Spitalfields/Whitechapel.
What a coincidence. Were they following each other ?

Hutch said he used to give her money at times. And that's just what Venturney said of the "other Joe".

And both Hutch and Fleming were dossers at the VH at the time of the murders.

And Fleming is known to have use an alias later on.

Isn't the possibility worth considering ? (even without mentioning Fleming's madness ?)

[Lechmere]

“since you believe Hutch did it.”
I think she (and Malcolm) may be wavering!

If Barnett was recounting a truish tale about Kelly then she was moving all over the East End, often quite a distance from Commercial Street (and we independently know she lived at Breezers Hill) – so Hutchinson’s claim to have known her for three years rings hollow.

I don’t doubt that some of Kelly’s stories as told to Barnett had elements of truth. I have known people who give coloured and varied versions of their past lives – that change with the telling.
I would like to think that I have a good memory for such inconsistencies. Would Barnett have? I doubt it.
I don’t know that Barnett and Kelly would have conversed so much. Was it a relationship of convenience? For Kelly anyway. Was Barnett that much of a conversationslist? I doubt it. Would he have wanted to doubt her tales? I reckon he would have swallowed it hook line and sinker. I think he was a bit besotted and was punching above his weight in being Kelly’s boyfriend.

And we don’t know that Venturney’s Joe had the second name of Fleming.
And I repeat, Fleming was known as Fleming at the Victoria Home as he entered his name as Fleming while living there at the time of the 1891 census. He also gave his settlement in November 1888 as being the Victoria Home when he went to the Workhouse hospital. If this had been checked – which it almost certainly wasn’t but could have been – then he would have been in deep schtuck.

[Rubyretro]

Not sure you should be that flat, since you believe Hutch did it.

I do believe that Hutch did it, but that has nothing to do with with thinking or not that Hutch and Fleming could be the same person.

Hutch said he knew Mary for about 3 years, ie : before she moved to Spitalfields/Whitechapel.
What a coincidence. Were they following each other ?

Hutch was probably lying.

Hutch said he used to give her money at times. And that's just what Venturney said of the "other Joe".

She was an 'unfortunate'. I expect that she took money from more men than we can know about.

And both Hutch and Fleming were dossers at the VH at the time of the murders.

It might not have been the same Fleming as she went out with. Even if she was, it doesn't make them the same person.

And Fleming is known to have use an alias later on.

So many people in this case used aliases that I have to come to the conclusion that it was a frequent thing in this milieu. It doesn't mean that Hutch used the alias Fleming or vice versa.

Isn't the possibility worth considering ? (even without mentioning Fleming's madness ?)

[/QUOTE]
I always consider possibilities, but I've discounted this one (desolé, cher David)

[Rubyretro]

“since you believe Hutch did it.”
I think she (and Malcolm) may be wavering!

ooh you little provocatator, you ! 'not even for your blue eyes' matey ..

If Barnett was recounting a truish tale about Kelly then she was moving all over the East End, often quite a distance from Commercial Street (and we independently know she lived at Breezers Hill) – so Hutchinson’s claim to have known her for three years rings hollow

.
Hutch was lying in order to bolster his story of the murder night..It would be less believable if he had said that she was a mere recent acquaintance.

I don’t doubt that some of Kelly’s stories as told to Barnett had elements of truth

.
Thankyou.

I have known people who give coloured and varied versions of their past lives – that change with the telling.
I would like to think that I have a good memory for such inconsistencies. Would Barnett have? I doubt it.

He didn't have one or two conversations with her...he must have had very many. Nobody could be that dim.

I don’t know that Barnett and Kelly would have conversed so much

.
Well what else do you think that they were doing in that bare confined space ? Staring at the floor in silence ?
They couldn't have spent their whole time bonking -for one thing, I doubt that Mary wanted to bring her work home with her (I should think that bonking would be the very last thing she wanted to do...poor Joe, poor Joe)
They obviously were conversing.

Was it a relationship of convenience? For Kelly anyway

.
How would we know.

Was Barnett that much of a conversationslist? I doubt it

.
We are not talking about 'quality'..I don't suppose that they were debating
philosophical points. Talking about their families..yes.

Would he have wanted to doubt her tales? I reckon he would have swallowed it hook line and sinker

.
For '5 minutes'.

I think he was a bit besotted and was punching above his weight in being Kelly’s boyfriend.

ah-hah ! So you too have a romantic vision of Mary Kelly ! You'll be writing poems before long..

And we don’t know that Venturney’s Joe had the second name of Fleming.
And I repeat, Fleming was known as Fleming at the Victoria Home as he entered his name as Fleming while living there at the time of the 1891 census. He also gave his settlement in November 1888 as being the Victoria Home when he went to the Workhouse hospital. If this had been checked – which it almost certainly wasn’t but could have been – then he would have been in deep schtuck.

I will grudgingly accept that we agree..

[Malcolm X]

“since you believe Hutch did it.”
I think she (and Malcolm) may be wavering!

..

no i'm not wavering, but i do have my eye out for another suspect; just in case
i'm presently on ``freeze frame`` until i can be bothered to download and study/write out all that stuff from the police inquests etc and i might not tackle this till after Xmas

but, with regards to GH we still have loads of stuff to research.

1.....we need to know the layout of the Victoria holmes, i.e did he live in a dorm with others/ locker beside his bed etc, or did he have his own room, and was there a reception desk/ area/ security staff etc, there must have been someone in charge because as GH said, the place was locked up at night.... because we need to know where he stored the organs/ different clothing/ chalk etc.... dont forget that JTR would have needed to hide quite a bit of stuff, plus sneak in and out at night, this is maybe the most worrying aspect of GH as JTR.

2.....if JTR lived in a Public School style dormitory with another 10 others, like i fear, then he is not JTR, because if so, then he'd need a bolt hole somewhere else to store all his gear and this is starting to get a bit silly isn't it, just like R D'Onston, because i expect him at the very least, to be renting his own private room, because JTR would need to keep himself very private indeed !

3.....we still need to check his signatures, at least 6 times!

4.....Toppy is not JTR, he is too young !..... this is not the same GH that we're after, and unfortunately this GH was definitely staying at the Victoria Holmes and i have to say, that i'm very unhappy about this

[Lechmere]

Madam Retro
The evidence seems to point to Kelly using Barnett while he had a job and ditching him when he lost his job, and for Barnett liking her more than she liked him. So I think the prospect of Barnett pathetically believing every improbable story that Kelly told him and Barnett clinging on to the memory of these tall tales after her death, is high.
I can’t think of any suitable rhymes to describe this romance, so I will leave the poetry to the bard of Leyton cemetery.

Without wishing to be disgustingly snobbish, many many people fill their lives with inane chatter about nothing in particular. Most probably, the reality of the Barnett-Kelly discourse was of that nature. And he probably also got the odd ‘bonk’ now and then. And maybe some that were not odd.

Malcolm
We know that no one had their own room at the Victoria Home – in the sense that it was a regular private room where stuff could be left. They had to vacate the sleeping quarters in the daytime. They could pay extra to sleep in a single partitioned cubicle. That was the extent of the available privacy.
There was a facility to leave possessions in the care of the deputy – for which a small fee was payable

We also know that the Victoria Home actively discouraged late night entrants and even late night workers. Inmates who came in after 12.30 am or 1 .00 am (or was it 1.30 am I haven’t checked) needed to apply in advance for a special pass. This is explicitly stated in two contemporary sources.

So he had nowhere to hide things and couldn’t come and go late at night – unlike in the other common lodging houses.

Yes this is very worrying for GH to be JTR – so worrying that some Hutchinsonites pretend that it isn’t the case and try to airbrush these awkward facts out of the equation.

[DVV]

Hi Lechmere

And we don’t know that Venturney’s Joe had the second name of Fleming.

I'm afraid we know.

Barnett : "She told me that (...) she lived at what time (...) with Joseph Flemming, she was very fond of him. (...) Flemming used to visit her."

Venturney : "Deceased said she was fond of another man named Joe who used to come and see her."

Do you want to argue that, on balance, they're probably talking of two different persons ?

If so, well, as you like....

[DVV]

Hello my dear

Hutch was probably lying.

Not sure (and imo it's the only true part in Hutch story).

Btw, even if he was lying, the fact that these lies match so much with the very few details provided at the inquest about JF is a bit intriguing, don't you think ?

[DVV]

She was an 'unfortunate'. I expect that she took money from more men than we can know about.

Nope, my dear. If that was the case, why did both Barnett and Venturney bother to mention this detail at the inquest ?

They clearly talked of an ex-boyfriend who was still important in Mary's life.

And there is no doubt at all that the madman who died in Claybury was dossing in the VH in 1888, and was Mary's ex-boyfriend. Didn't Barnett say he was a plasterer from Bethnal Green ?

[Malcolm X]

.
Malcolm
We know that no one had their own room at the Victoria Home – in the sense that it was a regular private room where stuff could be left. They had to vacate the sleeping quarters in the daytime. They could pay extra to sleep in a single partitioned cubicle. That was the extent of the available privacy.
There was a facility to leave possessions in the care of the deputy – for which a small fee was payable

We also know that the Victoria Home actively discouraged late night entrants and even late night workers. Inmates who came in after 12.30 am or 1 .00 am (or was it 1.30 am I haven’t checked) needed to apply in advance for a special pass. This is explicitly stated in two contemporary sources.

So he had nowhere to hide things and couldn’t come and go late at night – unlike in the other common lodging houses.

Yes this is very worrying for GH to be JTR – so worrying that some Hutchinsonites pretend that it isn’t the case and try to airbrush these awkward facts out of the equation.

yes thanks, this is exactly as i thought, it is almost identical to my boarding school.... oh dear!

JTR definitely did not live here, not unless he had another bolt hole and didn't mind roughing it out on the streets.

1..... he would need somewhere to store his organs, pieces of cloth, chalk, finally his knife and a sharpening stone..his knife is always razor sharp and cutting someone up from a previous murder will definitely blunt the blade.

2..... he needs to store extra clothing

3.....he needs somewhere where he can read the local newspapers quietly on his own and to gloat/ day dream etc.... he'll be doing this for flipping hours on end.

4.... he might have written to the police.

whatever the case, you can see that the victoria home is totally useless for JTR, expect him at the very least to rent a private room like Tumblety.

who was staying at Victoria home then ?.... it looks like Toppy doesn't it..... oh dear, because this GH was definitely there and this weakens him as JTR by quite a lot, at least 70%

its over to you Ben to try and explain this away !

[DVV]

Wow...Mr Pointer is becoming a strong suspect...!