A Intresting find?

[richardnunweek]

Good morning Bob,
I do not dispute that spelling of Fleming that you have exhibited, but as mentioned that name has been spelt differently on many occassions, so whats to say that Tillett spelt it as Fleming, even if the spelling was incorrect?
The whole point of my initial post was the possible connection between the three men mentioned ie Bethnal green, same age, described as friends by Tillett, who apparently worked together, and the man named as Fleming/Flemming, being described as a 'brawny giant'.
We have in black and white, a description of the man known as James Evans physical well being, described as a man of 6'7 in height , and around 11'10lb.
This person was Joseph Fleming without a doubt, as his mother Henreitta would later confirm that.
Many people have suggested that the height was put in error, however apparently there was 'Brawny giant' working at the docks in 1887 by the name of Fleming, and as that was the last occupatation that Evans/Fleming was known to have as employment before being certified, I would suggest that they were one of the same.
With reference to the 'brawny' which would imply a strong/muscular type, along with a height reference 'Giant', one could duduce that Fleming may have lost a considerable amount of weight before confinement, as he was picked up in not to good a 'condition', not to mention his unsteady weight whilst confined.
I would suggest that back in 1887, long before his insanity peaked, he would have been a man of great physical strength , and appearnce.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Eh?

But you’re not making any sense Richard. Everything you are saying is assuming you have correctly identified the right Joseph Flemming. I maintain you haven’t. My man’s mother was called Sarah not Henrietta.

Your statement that the last employment Flemming (MJK affiliated) had in 1887 was a dock labourer is simply wrong as in 1888 at the Inquest his occupation is given as Plasterer.

You then say the name has been spelt differently on many occasions. No it hasn’t! It was spelled with 2 ‘M’s at the inquest, it was spelled the same in the 1881, it was spelled the same in the 1871 and spelled the same in the first census he appears on in 1861. Can you please show me where in those official documents his name has had a different spelling?

There might well have been another man who had all the attributes you say but I maintain there is absolutely nothing to link him to the man mentioned in the Inquest.

If there is then please tell me what.

[Bob Hinton]

To clarify

Your intitial post refers to a man called Joseph Fleming. Can you please demonstrate the link between this person and the man mentioned at the inquest?

[Debra A]

I appreciate that but his research only holds good if he has the right family. I reproduce below my candidate from the 1861 census.

Now on all the census returns the name is spelled Flemming, with two M’s, so to say that in the official records the name is spelled both ways is incorrect.

Now we come to the official record of the inquest, the transcripts. I reproduce an extract from the official record. Note the spelling of the name.

The start point for any investigation must be the Inquest that is where we are first introduced to Joseph Flemming. His occupation is given as plasterer and his home ground is given as Bethnal Green.

Now I don’t know if Chris Scott has any official record listing his man as a plasterer, I know his choices father is listed as one, but that’s not the same.


Now my candidate is listed in official records as follows:

Inquest as Joseph Flemming (the start)
1881 Census listed as Joseph Flemming Plasterer (age 22)
1871 Census listed as Joseph Flemming (age 11) together with a Sarah Flemming age 6 (probably sister) in Bethnal Green Workhouse
1861 Census listed as Joseph Flemming, (age 3) father George, mother Sarah, living in Bethnal Green.

Now allowing for minor errors in the ages, DOB apparently ranges from 1858 to 1860, I submit that this man more accurately fits the information we have about the man mentioned in the Inquest. The spelling of the name has remained the same, from the Inquest back to the 1881, back to the 1871, back to the 1861, the locality is correct and the occupation is correct.

For another candidate to be suggested I would maintain that he must conform, or very good reasons given as to why he doesn’t conform, to the information given at the Inquest – the starting point!

Bob, thanks for posting this information. It would be useful if it could be decided which of the Flem(m)ing details are correct, yours or those researched by Chris Scott and others. If your research is correct, Joseph Flemming, who's mother was named Sarah, cannot be the Joseph Fleming who was sent to an asylum under the name of James Evans(transcribed details of his asylum records appear on the Joseph Fleming thread) as his mother was named Henrietta and his details tie in with the Joseph Fleming Chris Scott researched.

What address do you have joseph Flemming at in 1881? This is a brief snip of some of the information from 'A cast of thousands' by Chris Scott, it seems like you may have both picked out the same man in 81 but not for the other census entries;


1871 census living at 60 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green
By the time of the 1881 census, Joseph had left home and was living in lodgings in 61 Crozier Terrace which was in Homerton, north east of Bethnal Green. By this time he is listed as following his father's trade as a plasterer.

And also;
Firstly, the spelling of his name. In census records his name is usually rendered as FLEMMING but in his birth record it is spelt FLEMING. His birth was registered at Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859 (Volume 1c page 254). His parents were Richard Fleming, a plasterer, who was born in Ramsgate, Kent in 1822 and Henrietta Fleming, who was born in Camberwell, Surrey in 1822.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Bob,
This is all about have we got the right person, rather like the Paleys Barnett v Paul Harrisons, the latter being discounted by the majority, even though very little is known about the former.
So will the real Joseph Fleming/flemming stand up and be counted...
The vast majority of Casebook I feel, hold the opinion that Henreitta was the mother of the man that ended his days in a mental institution , and died in 1920, and this man was the former lover of Mary Kelly.
This man, for reasons unknown, was held under the name of James Evans.
The apparent stature of Evans [ if correctly stated] would relate to the man known as Fleming/Flemming, which was the man that Tillett mentioned in his memoirs.. this person was a co worker of his , which means that in 1887 was working in the Monumental Warehouse situated at the docks.
We should not overplay the Plasterer point, Harry Orbel one of the men that Tillet refered to, was initially a cabinet maker, but ended up in a tea warehouse, and Tillett himself was a bootmaker, and ended up at the Monument warehouse as a teacooper.
As far as I know the information that Fleming was a Plasterer came from Barnett, and he would have known the trade he was in via Mjk,but that does not conclude that he was so in 1888.
Even Barnett addressed himself as a fish porter, even though he was a seller of oranges in weeks previously, even a possible coal porter, according to McCarthy.
To Conclude.
We appear to have two points of view, so we need more valid opinions.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Baffled

Richard this is just nonsense. You cannot possible say what the majority of other people think. I cannot understand why you are so confused. The first time Flemming appears before us is at the inquest, therefore our search must encompass that information. The information is in three parts. One his name is Joseph Flemming, two he has a connection with Bethnal Green and three he is a plasterer.

As I have said before the nearest census is 1881 and that shows a Joseph Flemming plasterer living as a lodger at Crozier Terrace. The next step back is the 1871 and that shows Joseph Flemming living in the Bethnal Green Workhouse with Sarah who is probably his sister and then we have Joseph Flemming in the 1861 census with his mother and father.

What you are saying is that the 1881 is fine but the others you don’t like so much so you will ignore the different spelling of his name and latch on to somebody else. That’s plain silly – unless you have proof that these are the same people.

If the records only showed Flemming in the 1881, and then this person completely disappears from the other records, then sure I would say that the probability is a mistake was made in the spelling and we should consider other people. But when you have such a perfect match I cannot understand why you dismiss Flemming.

However if you believe that I have got it wrong then it is up to you to show where the connection is. What makes you so sure that son of Henrietta is right?

[Debra A]

As I have said before the nearest census is 1881 and that shows a Joseph Flemming plasterer living as a lodger at Crozier Terrace. The next step back is the 1871 and that shows Joseph Flemming living in the Bethnal Green Workhouse with Sarah who is probably his sister and then we have Joseph Flemming in the 1861 census with his mother and father.

Bob, I suspected that both yorself and Chris had identified the same man in 1881, as I said in my last post. What differs is that you have chosen different men for the previous census entries.

[Bob Hinton]

Correct

[QUOTE=Debra A;137230]Bob, I suspected that both yorself and Chris had identified the same man in 1881, as I said in my last post. What differs is that you have chosen different men for the previous census entries.[/QUO

Absolutely right, we do have the same man in 1881, however I have continued to track the man with the same spelling all the way back. Now if someone wants to say that is wrong then they must put up some reason why it is wrong, you can't just say "Oh well I fancy this one even though his name is spelled differently, because he has a far more dramatic life".

Otherwise you have the unbelievable situation where we track a Joseph Flemming in 1861, who is the wrong one, in 1871, who is still the wrong one, 1881 I'll accept this one because he's a plasterer even though his name is different, and 1888 oh yes I'll have this one as well even though his name is different.

That's not the way it works. To convince you have to show precisely why the chap who ended up in an asylum is the one from 1888, you can't pick and choose which bits of information you are going to use.

[Debra A]

Perhaps the occupation of Richard Fleming as a plasterer in 1871 was an influence on Chris choosing a different family to you.
As far as I can tell, your Joseph Flemming fits very well too.

[Bob Hinton]

Problem

Perhaps the occupation of Richard Fleming as a plasterer in 1871 was an influence on Chris choosing a different family to you.
As far as I can tell, your Joseph Flemming fits very well too.

And therein lies the problem. You can't pick and choose which bits you use, you have to stick to the path.

[Debra A]

Do you happen to have a birth record (or index reference) for your Joseph Flemming, Bob. There is one for the Joseph Fleming, son of Richard and Henrietta, but I can't seem to find one for the son of George and Sarah. I have a suspicion that Joseph may not have been his first name but his middle name,but not sure yet.

[Debra A]

There is one Joseph Fleming in the index b in Bethnal Green at the right time;
Births Jun 1859 Fleming Joseph Bethnal Gn 1c 254

There is no Joseph Flemming in the birth index on free BMD born between 1857 and 1860 anywhere in London.


But there is one Edward Joseph Fleming, although the birth was registered in Whitechapel and not Bethnal Green;
Births Dec 1857
Fleming Edward Joseph Whitechapel 1c 337


And also this;
Baptisms Parish of St leonard shoreditch 1858, Borough of Hackney

Dec 26th Edward Joseph Fleming, parents George and Sarah, George's occupation cordwainer, address is illegible...something Yard.

Could this be your man, Bob?

[Bob Hinton]

Yes it looks like it. Joseph Flemmings father was a shoemaker (cordwainer). Where did you get this information? Have you got a link?

I can find no record of birth for Joseph Flemming, however experience has taught me that's not unusual ( see the next Rip)

[Debra A]

The information comes from Ancestry, I have a subscription.

The reason there is no birth index record for the son of George and Sarah is probably because he was registered and baptised as Edward Joseph Fleming (one m)

I posted the reference in my last post, but here it is again
Births Dec 1857
Fleming Edward Joseph Whitechapel 1c 337


Here is the baptismal record for Edward joseph Fleming, son of George and Sarah.
The baptism was at St Leonard Shoreditch in 1858.





Other children of the same couple George and Sarah were also baptised at the same church, St Leonard Shoreditch;

Charles Fleming
Mother: Sarah Fleming
Father: George Fleming
Birth: 20 Feb 1848 - Hackney, London


Sarah Ann Fleming
Mother: Sarah Fleming
Father: George Fleming
Birth: 7 Dec 1862 - Hackney, London

Do these other children corerspond to the siblings of 'your' Joseph Flemming at all? I see you mention a younger sister Sarah in one of your posts.

[Chris]

And also this;
Baptisms Parish of St leonard shoreditch 1858, Borough of Hackney

Dec 26th Edward Joseph Fleming, parents George and Sarah, George's occupation cordwainer, address is illegible...something Yard.

Based on this street index I think it must be New Inn Yard:

http://tinyurl.com/3a77t9j