The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming - transcription

[DVV]

Dock labourer... I'm sure plasterers were needed on the docks.
Mike

More than plumbers in a stable, funny you.

I very well understand how disturbed you are.

He's a bit skinny to make a plausible docker, isn't he ?

[DVV]

Unfortunately for The Good Michael, the Stone records bear testimony that Fleming, apparently a dock labourer in 1892, was also in the building trade.

It's all here, in this very thread, thanks to Chris efforts.

So please, Mike, do read a bit before posting.

Another thing is : plasterers and dockers do all need physical strength. And that also adds plausibility to Debs suggestion, and tends to push the emaciated giant out of the picture.

Last but not least : you may like it or not, but JF son-of-Richard-the-plasterer-from-Bethnal-Green declared he was a dock labourer in 1892, and there is nothing to baulk at in the East End 1888.

These are (simple) facts.

There was a time you took much pain to explain how a plumber, son of a plumber, had been a groom in his early twenties. That was reasonable, but not proven. In the case of Fleming, that is documented. So enjoy.

[Hunter]

Chris Scott...

Thank you for the information. I think I can speak for more than just myself that you're presence on these boards has been sorely missed. The contributions you have made over the past in helping all to understand the people involved in this saga are immeasurable.

One point about dock labourers...
Many of these men were temporary workers who, for one reason or another, came from other trades; including construction, former military and merchant seamen seeking jobs with another line. Either through economic circumstances that lessoned the demand for a particular trade or personal problems- such as illness, lack of dependency by former employers as a result of alcohol abuse, or simple displacement for a variety of reasons- they came from many walks of life that would have been considered the lower stratum of society.

Not all, but many were the male equivalent to the female 'unfortunates' that we are more familiar with. Some of them may have had more respectable vocations in the past that may not have been recorded in a register that may categorize the most recent occupation.

[The Good Michael]

...



One point about dock labourers...
Many of these men were temporary workers who, for one reason or another, came from other trades; including construction, former military and merchant seamen seeking jobs with another line. Either through economic circumstances that lessoned the demand for a particular trade or personal problems- such as illness, lack of dependency by former employers as a result of alcohol abuse, or simple displacement for a variety of reasons- they came from many walks of life that would have been considered the lower stratum of society.

Not all, but many were the male equivalent to the female 'unfortunates' that we are more familiar with. Some of them may have had more respectable vocations in the past that may not have been recorded in a register that may categorize the most recent occupation.

I agree with much of this. Anyone in the lower rungs of society could and did do anything they needed to to make ends meet or to keep them in alcohol which was often the same thing.

It happens nowadays too with teachers who don't get paid enough, doing all kinds of menial summer jobs to get enough money to get that masters or doctorate or to just have enough to go on vacation.

Mike

[DVV]

I'm sure plasterers were needed on the docks.
Mike

See post above, people.

[Chris Scott]

I also found this chart in my notes of Joseph Fleming's ancestors:-

[DVV]

Congrats and thanks for sharing, Chris.

Out of curiosity, are the Shoreditch District Infirmary records kept in Redbridge ?

Cheers
Dvvvv

[DVV]

Jane (born 1857) would have been named after Henrietta's mother, and Joseph after her father.

Their first child (Mary Ann, born 1863), on the contrary, took the name of Richard's grandmother.

No idea for the last daughter, Jessie (born 1868). Perhaps Henrietta's grandmother ?

[DVV]

Any biographical details on Richard (Jf grandfather), John and John Fleming are welcome. That "insanity had been in the family since 160 years", as Henrietta said, may refer to Joseph paternal ancestors.

I can't remember why Joseph's father ended at the Shoreditch Infirmary. Or is it that I've never known ?

[DVV]

Evans may be the name of one of Joseph's ancestors on the maternal side.
Any specific reason why they're still unknown ? Henrietta's mother maiden name is lacking too.

[Cogidubnus]

I wouldn't mind betting the hook listed as an Evans possession was actually a bill hook of the type commonly carried by East London dockers (and fearsomely used in regular punch ups/fights between the East India dock men and the West India dock men!)...and the leather strop to sharpen it on of course...

My maternal grandfather was a (Wapping) docker and went to his grave two fingers short on one hand after such a fight...dock labourers tended to be hired by the day, or by the job. A foreman would turn up at a predetermined point and sign up enough labour to meet his requirements...when times were hard labourers from one dock would turn up at the hiring point for the other and attempt to poach jobs...hence the disputes...

Now here's an interesting point...would a dockers bill hook cut throats like Jack did?

All the best
Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Another stray thought...could the "writer" mentioned, actually be a "rioter" - in the East End dialect they'd both sound much the same...doesn't add much to the sense though, unless there were actually riots during an earlier period of Flemming/Evans life...

[lynn cates]

Trafalgar

Hello Cog. Welcome to the boards.

Riots? Are you perhaps thinking of the Trafalgar sq riot of 1887? Would that work?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Coconut Shies

No Lynn...I think I may've just put something together...the Coconut Shy being perhaps a reference to the riots in the Mile End Road when the Salvation Army women were surrounded and pelted with hot coals! Were Flemming/Evans and someone called Isaacs involved?

It would indicate a predilection for violence against women, would it not?

All very speculative, but....

Best wishes
Dave

[lynn cates]

recall

Hello Cog. Hmm. Well, he did play shying at coconuts with Isaacs. I took it literally.

You are suggesting that, in his afflicted mind, he misrecalled the event?

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

(I think he is a fascinating suspect for MJK.)

Cheers.
LC