The Madness of Joseph Fleming

[Jon Guy]

...and I was always thought it was Goering who was missing an egg !!!

[Stephen Thomas]

...and I was always thought it was Goering who was missing an egg !!!

No, that was Hitler and the other was in the Leeds Town Hall. Himmler was very similar but Goebbels had none at all.

[Sam Flynn]

So now we know : the Fuehrer was simply ransacking Europe to find his eggs. He never did find the one hidden in London.

... despite all the shelling.

[Robert]

Himmler was a chicken farmer which gave him an unfair advantage with eggs.

[Robert]

Hitler had only one egg, but he did have plenty of soldiers.

[protohistorian]

Hitler was born 20 April 1889. I remember because thats the day the ass heds at Columbine school decided to rampage. Theres a good example of just how poorly a brain can function. Live Strong Dave

[Varqm]

Hi,

-If it can be logically inferred that he was probably there - which it can - than "all these
actions of George" have a crucial and direct bearing on "him being a possible murderer".
That's not the same as being able to "prove" he was there, but then you can't do that will the vast majority of suspects.

Ben


From the records we do have, related to the case only,can you point what part logically infers that he was there?
The police reaction/reports? Press reaction/reports? Neighbors reaction ?


- I believe he waited for the Inquest to end, and that convinces me that he may have thought someone at that
Inquest might recognize him....maybe as someone whose name he isnt using at that moment. I think its possible
under those circumstances that Joe Fleming might have been Hutchinson, and that he was "adding" a sighting of
himself as Hutchinson in case anyone else who had not come forward yet also saw him clearly that night.
Meaning he was in fact there in the middle of the night.

Perry Mason

Hutch's lies includes everything unless a better record points another way. Interpretations are much less convincing.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi,

-If it can be logically inferred that he was probably there - which it can - than "all these
actions of George" have a crucial and direct bearing on "him being a possible murderer".
That's not the same as being able to "prove" he was there, but then you can't do that will the vast majority of suspects.

Ben


From the records we do have, related to the case only,can you point what part logically infers that he was there?
The police reaction/reports? Press reaction/reports? Neighbors reaction ?


- I believe he waited for the Inquest to end, and that convinces me that he may have thought someone at that
Inquest might recognize him....maybe as someone whose name he isnt using at that moment. I think its possible
under those circumstances that Joe Fleming might have been Hutchinson, and that he was "adding" a sighting of
himself as Hutchinson in case anyone else who had not come forward yet also saw him clearly that night.
Meaning he was in fact there in the middle of the night.

Perry Mason

Hutch's lies includes everything unless a better record points another way. Interpretations are much less convincing.

Is it not curious however that nobody commented on the mans height?

Pirate

[Ben]

Varqm,

Why did you say "Anyways, this is a Fleming thread" in protest to other people introducing Hutchinson into the discussion, but now mention him at every opportunity? I'll just get this one out of the way, then I hope you'll act on your own advice.

From the records we do have, related to the case only,can you point what part logically infers that he was there?

I've just told you. Sarah Lewis gave evidence at the inquest and in her police report to the effect that she had observed a man standing opposite Miller's Court at 2:30am on the night of the murder. He was apparently watching or waitining for someone. As soon as that information is publicly released, Hutchinson came forward and stated that he was watching and waiting for someone opposite the court at 2:30 on the night of the murder.

Three possibilities suggest themselves here:

1) Hutchinson lied about the entire thing without knowing of Sarah Lewis' evidence, but by some unlikely freak of coincidence, his lie just happens to coincide with the reported behaviour a real person who "watched and waited" for someone opposite the court.

2) Hutchinson wasn't there, but heard of Lewis' evidence and decided it was a good idea (for some reason(?)) to pretend to be the man Lewis saw, and then pretend to be a witness. Not quite as preposterous as option 1), but there's not a lot of precedent for that sort of behaviour in the annals of true crime, and I don't consider it plausible that a publicity-seeker would expose himself to such risk without at least providing an alibi.

3) Hutchinson was there, realized he'd been seen, and came up with a crap excuse for being there.

I consider 3) to be the most plausible explanation by a long sea mile.

Hutch's lies includes everything unless a better record points another way.

That sentence didn't really make sense.

But back to Fleming.

Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

But if Hutchinson and Fleming were one of the same why didnt Sarah Lewis mention, 'a very tall man' ? Fleming after all would have stuck out a bit.

Pirate

[Ben]

Hi Pirate,

The only known reference to Fleming's height of 6"7 is perplexing in that his bodily health is described as "good" despite his weight being recorded as 11 stone and 8 pounds. I'm no medical expert, but with that height and weight he'd be incredibly skinny and unlikely to be in "good" bodily health.

However, if Fleming really was as lofty as all that, he is unlikely to have been Lewis's man since she described him as having essentially the polar opposite physical particulars to an incredibly tall and incredibly skinny person. It would also weaken Fleming's ripper candidacy in general somewhat, since no other witness's height estimation was anywhere hear 6'7.

All the best,
Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Ben

Trust you are well.

Yes I agree with that assessment. Although 6’1’’ would be possible, he’d still be very tall for the time..

We also have to assume that we are talking about the same Joseph Fleming that Joe Barnet alludes to, Mrs Carthy mentions and Julia Venturney calls , Joe.

But I must admit I’m curious as to the present line of enquiry and what else will be discovered about James Evans. Exciting stuff.

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Measued as BMI (Body Mass Index), a person of 201 centimetres should weigh between 75-100 kilograms to have a normal weight. That means that deducting 5 kilograms from that weight would result in a distinctly underweight person. To this we should add the fact that a man is a lot sturdier built than a woman, meaning that 70 kilograms (which corresponds to the 11 stone Evans/Fleming displayed at the latter end of his incarceration at Stone Asylum) may well be even more on the underweight side implied by the general BMI.
If we ask ourselves where the weight of 70 kilograms would end up on the BMI list, the answer is that it would end up on the upper half of the normal section - which seems a lot more like somebody of good bodily health.

That said, there are of course many people who are distinctly thin but still of good bodily health. And Evans/Fleming weighed 11.8 from the outset. And no matter how long I stare at the figure in the records, it will not turn into the figure 5.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Just found another piece of importance here: It seems that although there is some disagreement among scientists, the general agreement is that a person should be diagnozed as anorectic when he/she drops below a BMI of 18.0. A normal BMI ranges from 19-25. And our friend Evans, the 201 centimetre man, displayed - at 11 stone - a BMI of 17,3!
That would seem to imply that he could not have been of very "good bodily health"...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish,

Not by today's standards - but by the undernourished standards of the Late Victorian East End? I'm not saying he wouldn't have been painfully thin - he'd have been positively skeletal - but then, such a long frame would take some feeding at the best of times. If such a tall person were on the "Kozminski Diet", and/or in irregular employment due to a mental illness, then attaining even a lower-end BMI would have been quite a challenge.