Domestic or lunatic?

[Sam Flynn]

PS. That Whitehead girl - did you marry her??

I wish! Sadly not

[DVV]

Hi all,
violence or not when in asylum, years after, does not seem very relevant to me. Anyway, the term "abusive" indicates some kind of violence (verbal) - a reply to the supposed "persecution" he was suffering, I imagine.

Amitiés,
David

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Fisherman,
I keep hearing about Ed Gein.Well he sounds quite a different kettle of fish to me from the Ripper.
In fact I think it may be a mistake to keep quoting other murderers because they,like everyone else,are individuals,with their own particular quirks.Didnt Ed Gein skin and eat people or something ? Well that is"nt exactly a close fit to what we can glean about Jack.
But regarding the point about violent conduct.There is absolutely no indication that Joseph Fleming was a violent man or that he had been up before the beak for being violent.
It also seems absurd to think that in a lodging house right in the very heart of the murder area,such as the Victoria Home,the police would not have searched everyone living there and asked questions of all the residents when they were doing their October House to house searches of Wentworth Street and its environs.
Moreover,if Joseph Fleming was the violent character portrayed yesterday on this thread,then you can bet his behaviour would have been remarked upon by other lodgers.Everybody was on high alert during the Jack the Ripper murders and an oddball like that would have been sussed damn quick.
Best

[Ben]

I keep hearing about Ed Gein.Well he sounds quite a different kettle of fish to me from the Ripper.

Doesn't matter, Norma.

It doesn't invalidate Fisherman's point that known serial killers didn't require excessive sedation once they were incarcerated in an asylum, and any assumption that Fleming's non-violence at Claybury somehow militates against him being the ripper has no inferential basis at all. In fact, such an assumption would militate very heavily against what we know to be true of other serial killers.

It's all very well to claim that Jack was "unique" and that other serial killers are therefore irrelevent for comparison studies (a position which every expert in the field would dispute very strongly), but it's a little crazy to expect others to dismiss those potential comparison studies in preference to your own personal assumptions as to how the killer would or wouldn't behave in X or Y circumstances.

There is absolutely no indication that Joseph Fleming was a violent man or that he had been up before the beak for being violent.

Wrong. Julia Venturney stated that Fleming used to ill-use Kelly for living with Barnett. That's a strong indication of violence. It's not "abolsutely no indication". You're using completely the wrong terminology.

Moreover,if Joseph Fleming was the violent character portrayed yesterday on this thread,then you can bet his behaviour would have been remarked upon by other lodgers

If he was dispaying lots of outwards and visible signs of violence and "mania" in 1888, yes. If not, no problem. And as for the police being in a position to question every single occupant of every single lodging house and rule them out one by one accordingly? Nah. Just nah.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

If he was dispaying lots of outwards and visible signs of violence and "mania" in 1888, yes.

...displaying lots of outward and visible signs...

Can we increase the time limit for post-editing in order to accomodate tired and/or semi-sloshed people, please?

[Celesta]

Just a quick cool-off:

IF Fleming killed Mary Kelly but NOT the others, we are left with a man who decided to kill his (ex?)fiancée Ripper style - only worse. I find that hard to accept.

IF on the other hand, Fleming killed Mary Kelly AND the others, we are left with a man who feels a need to get back on his (ex?)fiancée - but who for some reason decides to first have a go at a handful of other prostitutes who could have been Marys mother, agewise.

I find that hard to accept too.

...much as I enjoy that little twist of Hutch and Fleming apparently both being Victorian home residents at the same time. Coincidential, though, if you ask me.

All the best,

Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

As intriguing as the notion is that Hutch and Flem are the same guy, I have to agree with you. As for the coincidence of them both being Victoria Home residents...most of the people involved in these cases practically lived in each other's back pockets!

Best to you, Fisherman. Long time no talk to. Hope all is well.

Cel

[Ben]

Hi Cel,

As intriguing as the notion is that Hutch and Flem are the same guy, I have to agree with you.

As I've already explained, though, the Victoria Home connection isn't the only factor that has led some to speculate that they may have been one and the same. It's been suggested that David Cohen was Nathan Kaminsky, but there are fewer known points of congruity between the two of them than there are between Hutchinson and Fleming.

Regards,
Ben

[Celesta]

Hi Cel,



As I've already explained, though, the Victoria Home connection isn't the only factor that has led some to speculate that they may have been one and the same. It's been suggested that David Cohen was Nathan Kaminsky, but there are fewer known points of congruity between the two of them than there are between Hutchinson and Fleming.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I understand. Sarah Lewis was a visitor to the Keylers, who lived in the Court, and I have wondered whether or not she had ever seen Joseph Flemming. Is there a description for him? I have this vague notion of his being tall, but I haven't located the source for that. Tully talks about him but gives no description. He's not in Sugden's index. The threads for him here are gone. It seems that those who had met Fleming or knew who he was might have made a connection, if he resembled Sarah's description of the lurker.

Best,

Cel

[Ben]

Hi Cel,

It's possible, but there's no indication that Fleming's visits and those of Sarah Lewis ever coincided. In fact, the latter could well have been a "one off" of sorts. Fleming's height was 5 foot 7, although the entry was 6'7" (sic) - the "sic" naturally present to indicate an error. We're not sure how many, if any, of the other witnesses had either met Fleming or knew him by sight. We know that Julia Venturney did not.

Best regards,
Ben

[Celesta]

Thanks, Ben. 5'7" then. What is it that you're saying is a "one off"? Sarah's visits to the Court? How can we be sure of that?

[Fisherman]

Hi Celesta!

All is fab, even; and thanks for asking. I hope the same applies in your case!

I think that we have very little on Fleming, apparitionwise. As for his length, there was some consternation earlier because there was a record found that seemed to state that he was 6 ft 7! It would seem, however, that it was misread, and that the real length should be put down to 5 ft 7.
Brown eyes - that is about the only tangible thing I have seen mentioned.

Natalie, I have to agree with Ben on the Gein issue. SInce what you were saying was that a man that was claimed not to be dangerous by the asylum expertise of them days, it is useful to show that even men we know to have committed hideous crimes can be judged as completely harmless by even today´s expertise on such questions.
Incidentally, what Gein is most infamous for, is his wish to create a female skin to wear outside his own, dancing about outside his house on moonlit nights... He murdered to aquire the material he needed, but he also dug up dead people from the local to accomodate his need for skin. If you have seen the movie "Silence of the lambs", you may have noticed that the character "Buffalo Bill" in that film is a mixture of three historical serialists - Ed Gein, Ted Bundy and Albert Fish.

I will also take the opportunity to point out that what we have on Fleming implying violence at the time of the murders is so little that it may well amount to almost nothing. But given the fact that I have just argued that the most dangerous of men may well be meek, bashful creatures on the surface, I really don´t think that either qualifies or disqualifies Fleming as a viable suspect. There is much more to go on in the asylum records, speaking of abusive behaviour, mania and - not least - delusions of persecution.

The best, all!

Fisherman

[Ben]

Oh, we're not "sure", Cel. I'm saying it could have been a one-off (as opposed to a very regular visitor) for all we know.

[Ben]

Agreed, Fish. A very reasonable post.

Venturney's reference to ill-use on Fleming's part on the grounds that Kelly was living with another man point very strongly in the direction of physical abuse, but how often and how severe we don't know. As for physical appearance, we have little to go on as you point out. He was, however, 29 at the time of the murders, 5"7' in height with brown eyes, a "vacant expression" (at least by 1892) and a scar on his right temple (at least by 1892). He worked as a dock labourer, and he no doubt dressed accordingly (see sketches of Sadler and Kidney).

Best,

Ben

[Dan Norder]

Didnt Ed Gein skin and eat people or something ? Well that is"nt exactly a close fit to what we can glean about Jack.

There's definitely some major overlap in the pathology. Gein was a necrophiliac, Jack was a necrosadist. Both removed body parts to keep as trophies. Those with a strong stomach who want to Google around for the image of a woman Gein opened up like an animal carcass will see some major similarities to what happened to Eddowes and Kelly.

The major difference between the two seems to be that Jack was more active in getting his victims and more willing to express violence at risk of being caught. Gein was far less bold, and it doesn't surprise me at all that he was a mouse when locked up.

[DVV]

I understand. Sarah Lewis was a visitor to the Keylers, who lived in the Court, and I have wondered whether or not she had ever seen Joseph Flemming.

Hello Celesta,
The major problem we face with Fleming is his extraordinary elusiveness - at leastifor 1888.
We know he was in Whitechapel, we know he "sometimes" met Mary, but apparently, noboby except Mary seems to have had a direct contact with him.
Barnett only refers to a Flem(m)ing living in Bethnal Green, while Venturney has "Mary told me..."
This suggests that Mary carefully managed to meet Fleming secretly, and it is also likely that she and Fleming did not meet in Miller's Court, but elsewhere.
And it seems also that Mary never told anybody that Fleming had moved to Whitechapel (may be Fleming did not told her...?).

Amitiés,
David