Domestic or lunatic?

[DVV]

There were 2 very interesting threads on Joseph Fleming some time ago, one discussing the possibility for Fleming and Hutchinson to be one and the same person (Fleming being known for having used at least one alias, that of James Evans).
However, Fleming doesn't necessarily need the "help" of Hutch to attract attention:

1- He has lived with Mary Kelly

2- He is said to have ill-used her at the time she was with Barnett

3- He was (or became) a lunatic, and died, indeed, at the Claybury Mental Hospital on 28 August 1920 (he was born in 1855 or 59)

...and I hope there is much more to come about him...

Curiously enough, his mental illness and the fact that he has been Mary's lover (she is said to have been very fond of him) make him of interest for both those who see Kelly's murder as the peak of a serie, or tend to view it as a domestic affair.
Amitiés,
DVV

[Ben]

Right you are, DVV.

You might also consider:

4- He moved into the heart of the murder district (The Victoria Home) in August 1888.

5- At 29 years of age and 5"7' in height in 1888 (when he worked as a docker), he broadly fits some of the more reliable witness descriptions to have emerged from the Whitechapel investigation. Caution is urged with this one given the unreliability of eyewitness sightings and the fact that these physical particulars could fit quite a few others, but it's worth throwing in for good measure all the same.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

True! And if witnesses have to be taken cautiously, it will always be difficult to believe in a long tall ripper...
Has the police try to trace Fleming, or did they pay no attention to Barnett and Venturney's accounts regarding him?
Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Hi David,

Has the police try to trace Fleming, or did they pay no attention to Barnett and Venturney's accounts regarding him?

They may well have tried, but with Fleming's alias and the fact that he arrived in the immediate district so recently, the chances of police searching efforts bearing fruit was relatively remote.

Best regards,
Ben

[crj]

Carl Feigenbaum

Carl Feigenbaum or Carl Zahn please read Trevor Marriott case closed.

[DVV]

And all the more, neither Barnett nor the Venturney seem to be aware of this new address.
Isn't that strange?
Barnett refers to Fleming living in Bethnal Green, while Venturney did not mention any address.
But both speak of him visiting Kelly in Miller's court.

So, is it that Kelly knew Fleming's new location but did not inform her friends, or should we imagine Fleming shifting slyly close to his ex-girlfriend?
Chilling!

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Absolutely, David.

Another point of interest is that Venturney had never seen Fleming; only heard about his visits and "ill-use" from Kelly. The same may well be true of Barnett, who gave no indication of ever having met his potential "rival".

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Just a quick cool-off:

IF Fleming killed Mary Kelly but NOT the others, we are left with a man who decided to kill his (ex?)fiancée Ripper style - only worse. I find that hard to accept.

IF on the other hand, Fleming killed Mary Kelly AND the others, we are left with a man who feels a need to get back on his (ex?)fiancée - but who for some reason decides to first have a go at a handful of other prostitutes who could have been Marys mother, agewise.

I find that hard to accept too.

...much as I enjoy that little twist of Hutch and Fleming apparently both being Victorian home residents at the same time. Coincidential, though, if you ask me.

All the best,

Fisherman

[Ben]

IF on the other hand, Fleming killed Mary Kelly AND the others, we are left with a man who feels a need to get back on his (ex?)fiancée - but who for some reason decides to first have a go at a handful of other prostitutes who could have been Marys mother, agewise.

I find that hard to accept too

If that's the sole motivation for Fleming killing Kelly and the others, yes, I'd find that a little tricky to accept too. But I ain't Bruce Paley, Fish!

...much as I enjoy that little twist of Hutch and Fleming apparently both being Victorian home residents at the same time. Coincidential, though, if you ask me

...Which I didn't.

And their residence during the murders is certainly not the only "coincidental" element between Fleming and Hutchinson. But, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread.

Best regards,
Ben

[crj]

question

Where i would like to know have you recieved or found information on any of the so called suspects and witnesses outside of the factual coroners inquests from the time? as very little documantation from the time actually remains? during the thorough investigation in his book Trevor Marriott very little evidence and even less new evidence could be discovered the word clutching at straws severely come to mind! even documentation between the queen and her government show no new evidence relating to the Whitechapel murders so how does information about periferal figures imerge except for being made up.

[Ben]

Census records, infirmary entries, asylum records, press accounts, police statements, inquest evidence...that sort of thing.

[DVV]

And their residence during the murders is certainly not the only "coincidental" element between Fleming and Hutchinson. But, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread.

Best regards,
Ben

Until I read your post above, that shows that Barnett and Venturney may have never seen Fleming's face, I could not see Fleming as a possible Hutch.
He obviously had taken too great a risk injecting himself if some witnesses had known him.

But now...afraid we'll have to struggle hard to keep Hutch away...

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread"

..but it seems to me that DVV, who initiated the thread, brought up the very subject of the two possibly being one and the same, Ben. Which is why I judged it completely legal to respond to that point.

You state that the Victoria home is "certainly not the only "coincidental" element between Fleming and Hutchinson", and of course there are other pointers, but not very much, is there?
If you ask me (and I realize that you haven´t, Ben) to come up with a possible explanation to how and why they could have been the same man, I would say that explanations along that line for some reason always seem to involve the acceptance that the killer is hidden in their identities, but I think that such a stance may have been reached a little too quick.
If Fleming was Hutch, and if he was watching Marys moves that night, maybe that was all he was doing? And when Lewis statement from the inquest dawned on him, he may have realized that he may get into trouble, and thus he invented Hutch.
Sounds a lot more reasonable to me than to accept Fleming as Marys Ripper-imitating killer - or as Jack the Ripper.

Trouble is, we are left with Lewis describing her loiterer as a short man, and Fleming apparently was not.

The best,

Fisherman

[DVV]

Ben writes:

"this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread"



Trouble is, we are left with Lewis describing her loiterer as a short man, and Fleming apparently was not.

The best,

Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,
Do you suggest that "6feet 7inches" was not a typo???
Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Ben writes:

"this isn't a Hutch-Fleming thread"


Fisherman

We can talk about Fleming/Evans without fanatically excluding Hutch, I hope...
Amitiés
David