Did Dagonet resemble the Fiend?

[Jonathan H]

The specific timing of when Macnaghten knew, or believed he knew, that Druitt was the Ripper, is arguably before the date March 1st 1891 (in the wake of the MP leak on Feb 11th) as this is when Sims/Dagonet suddenly reverses himself about really looking like the killer according to a coffee-stall owner.

Sims, however, has to completely revise a tale he had treated in 1889 as a crackpot's joke, e.g. then the book was a collection of his poems and it was in the wake of a single murder (Alice McKenzie) not the double event of 1888. So, the original trifle has been 'sexed-up and backdated.

"Mustard and Cress" in "The Referee"of March 1, 1891:

'... As a matter of fact, a year or two ago my portrait (the portrait outside the early cheap edition of "The Social Kaleidoscope") was taken to Scotland-yard by a man, and the police were informed that it was an exact likeness of the murderer. The way I got mixed up in the matter was this. An hour or two after the double murder had been committed on the night of September 30, 1888, a man of strange and wild appearance stopped at a coffee-stall. The coffee-stall keeper (knowing nothing then of the night's tragedy) began to talk about the Whitechapel murder. "I dare say we shall soon hear of another," he said. "Very likely," replied the wild-looking stranger; "perhaps you may hear of two to-morrow morning." He finished his coffee, and as he put the cup down the stall-keeper noticed that his cuffs were blood-stained.

The next morning - or rather, later on that morning - the news of the double murder in Whitechapel fell upon the startled ears of the coffee-stall keeper. "Good Lord!" he exclaimed; "why, that chap last night knew it. He must have been Jack himself!"

Walking along he came to a bookseller's and newsagent's. He looked at the placards, and then his eye suddenly rested on a book in the newsagent's window. Outside that book was a portrait. "Christopher Columbus!" exclaimed the coffee-stall keeper; "why that's the very image of him!" The book was "The Social Kaleidoscope." The astonished stall-keeper bought it, and, later on, when telling his adventures to the police, he produced the book and showed the portrait. Not only was this portrait of me shown to the police, but it was taken by the purchaser to the editor of the New York Herald (London edition), and afterwards to Dr. Forbes Winslow.

The matter came to my knowledge through the courtesy of the Herald editor, and Dr. Forbes Winslow also communicated with me, and I investigated the facts. The coffee-stall keeper, who was interviewed, was perfectly candid and straightforward, and at once explained that he didn't for a moment mean to say that I was his blood-stained customer on the night of the murders. All he meant was that his customer's features were very like mine ...'


Whilst that picture on the cover of the book about the Social Question does bear resemblance to the high school pictures of Druitt--because the chubby Sims was, as he admitted in an interview in 1904, atypically thinner of face due to illness--his own picture of himself as a teenager is an even stronger likeness. Howard Brown put this up on the other site (though you need tpo scroll down to see Montie directly compared with Sims):

http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=22556

If Macnaghten was obsessed with concealment why would his chum be broadcasting that he looked like the real killer?

My theory is that Mac was not sure if he could contain the "West of England" MP story that was doing the rounds of London. It was partly insurance to give the impression that the 'police' were onto this suspect in 1888, or something along those lines. As it was the leak was successfully plugged (except for the MP being briefly named in 1892) and Sims did not return to this notion of being the un-named Druitt's lookalike, at least in one picture, until 1902.

[GUT]

G'day Jonathan

I can see a resemblance, but the picture of Montie is so blurred it is really hard to say with any certainty.

I believe that there might be a book released next year with some new photos.

[Mayerling]

If you want a slight shocker, look up the photographic image of fin-de-siec writer Hubert M. Crackenthorpe, and compare his image to Montie's. He looks like Montie's younger brother.

[GUT]

If you want a slight shocker, look up the photographic image of fin-de-siec writer Hubert M. Crackenthorpe, and compare his image to Montie's. He looks like Montie's younger brother.

And note that middle name.

[Jonathan H]

The Social Kaleidoscope 1879

To Mayerling

Again I am indebted to Howard Brown, and co.

You have to scroll down to the end:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7617

In only this picture is Sims'hair parted in the dead center like Montie Druitt's.

This is Sims confirming that the 1879 picture was an unusually thin visage for him:

'The Daily Express' August 1st 1904, an interview with Sims:

‘Mr. Sims said he believed the coffee-stall keeper came across his portrait on the cover of the first edition of “The Social Kaleidoscope”, in a shop in a side-street in Southwark. “It was a terrible portrait—taken when I was very ill. My face was drawn and haggard, and surprisingly like the Ripper ... Mr. Sims said that he had not the slightest doubt in his mind as to who the “Ripper” really was. “Nor have the police”, he continued, “In the archives of the Home Office are the name and history of the wretched man. He was a mad physician belonging to a highly respected family. He committed the crimes after having been in a lunatic asylum as a homicidal maniac.”

I argue that this textual evidence makes it very probable that both Macnaghten and Sims had perused photos of the late Montague Druitt between Feb 11th 1891 and March 1st of the same year.

[Mayerling]

And note that middle name.

Hi Gut,

Yeah, I know. Put up that photo and any photo you locate of Hubert M. Crackenthorpe. I want to put down the following.

Not recalled to well in 2014 Hubert Crackenthorpe was a follower of the literary style of "naturalism" pioneered in France by Emile Zola. He wrote short stories only, in his brief career. Originally he and his older brother Darryl, were the sons of a distinguished legal authority and scholar named Montague Cookson. In 1887 a relative of the Cookson's who had close to 15,000 acres of land in northern England died. The next in line to inherit this was the same Montague Cookson. However there was a catch - Cookson found that (like many land chains in England) the ownership of the property could only be passed to a relative who was willing to change his last name to that of the long time previous line of owners. Here it was the name "Crackenthorpe". Cookson did not hesitate. In January 1888 he and his family officially changed their last name to "Crackenthorpe".

I bring this out because of two factors that have always intrigued me about Crackenthorpe.

One - his family changes its name for this enormous inheritance in January of 1888.

Two - his appearance (albeit based on the one photo I have ever seen of him when he was about 19) looks like Montague John Druitt.

and finally

things did not go well for Hubert Crackenthorpe. Although married, he and his wife had affairs, but he still loved his wife. In 1896 she divorced him.
He went to Paris. In November 1896 he vanished - but subsequently his body found. He either fell, or was pushed, or most likely committed suicide by drowning in the Seine.

His brother Darryl did the most he could to hide this family tragedy. Most in the know felt it was suicide over the divorce - but the rains in Paris that 1896 had been intense in November, and the Seine banks were overflowing. So he could have slipped. Or, it could have been like a mugging murder. Darryl opted for serious reasons to make it an accidental drowning.

The official reason given is that Darryl was at the start of a promising career in the diplomatic corps, and it did not stand to reason that he would want his name associated with a close relative who was a suicide.
Back then, that kind of scandal could affect the prospects of the relatives of the deceased.

So seems to be the reason for Darryl's actions at quashing deep inquiries into Hubert's death. And they seem fairly sensible.

Darryl did, by the way, have a long career in the diplomatic corps, and in the 1920s was Britain's official ambassador to the Central American republics.

But there is a fly in the ointment.

In 1897, Darryl decide to marry - he married a half Spanish/half American young woman named Ena. They did marry , with her mother and father both attending the ceremony. Her father was a General and a former Congressman. He had served in Spain as the American Minister to Spain from 1869 - 1873 when he resigned in a dispute with the Secretary of State over policy. The General had been married earlier, but now remarried Ena's mother, and the marriage produced two children. However, the General was an unfaithful husband and he and his second wife separated. The children were brought up by the second wife. The General has been the subject of several biographies and is colorful in Civil War histories. Perhaps too colorful. He had been James Buchanan's assistant at the Ministry to Britain in London in 1853-56. That year he was elected to Congress from a district in New York City, as Buchanan was elected President. His future seemed golden, except his first wife proved to be carrying on an affair (possibly tit-for-tat with him) with a prominent Washingtonian. Our Congressman learned of this by an anonymous letter, and went out in broad daylight, found the rival walking across the street from the White House at Jackson Square Park, and shot him to death (the man was unarmed). Our Congressman was arrested for murder, tried, and acquitted with the first use of the so-called "unwritten law" about a husband killing an adulterer threatening his marriage.

The Congressman would go on to become a Major General in the Northern Army in the Civil War, and would do some peculiar antics during the battle of Gettysburg that cost him his leg, but has also generated much discussion. Later he would play a part in creating the Gettysburg National Historical Site.

His name was Daniel Sickles.

Now, yeah Sickles had been a diplomat, a Congressman, a General and war hero, and Minister of the United States to Spain. But he was a womanizer, possibly corrupt, his limited military training nearly caused a disaster at Gettysburg, although the reverse tactics of his opponent (James Longstreet) balanced it to some extent, and his antics as Minister almost pushed the U.S. and Spain to war in 1873 over Cuba (Sickles wanted the U.S. to own Cuba). His resignation that year in his quarrel with Secretary of State Hamilton Fish was actually a good thing. Fish, with the strong help of England's then Minister to Spain (Sir Austen Layard, the archeologist) calmed things down and Spain settled the matter (this time peacefully).
And on top of all this, Sickles got away with the public shooting murder of Washington D.C. District Attorney Philip Barton Key in 1859. Key was the son of Francis Scott Key (author of "The Star Spangled Banner") and nephew of Chief Justice Roger Taney of the United States Supreme Court.
His murder made news across the U.S. and in Europe.

We are supposed to believe that Darryl was hiding the possible suicide of Hubert from the British government to protect his own prospects for a diplomatic career in 1896. Within a year his choice of bride (fortunately based on actual affection) was the daughter of one of the most notorious American scoundrels of the day, despite his acquisition of posts. I find that Darryl's actions with hiding Hubert's death in 1896 by suicide the way he tried can't solely be for safe-guarding his career from the stigma of a family suicide.

Unless - there was a second reason for this hiding of the suicide. Something about the near timing of eight years in a major city river. Something about that odd resemblance between Hubert and Druitt. And apparently Cookson is a family name associated with one female member of the Druitts.

See what I am getting at. Let's say Darryl let's everyone know it's a suicide. Someone can say, "Gee, wasn't Hubert once saying somebody else connected to his family drowned himself a decade or so ago?" The possibility of opening up a real Pandora's Box of a scandal - maybe it was there, and maybe it had to be squelched quickly.

[GUT]

G'day Jeff

But is there any evidence of any familial relationship?

[Mayerling]

G'day Jeff

But is there any evidence of any familial relationship?

Sometime back on this website somebody said that Cookson was a name of one of the woman who married into the Druitt's (Montie's line) - that the woman's father was a man (possibly a Reverend) named Cookson. I'm not making that up. I have to admit this whole structure is shaky, but if anyone has the time to look into pair of connections between a Cookson family and the Druitts, and the Cookson/Crackenthorpe family with such a Cookson-Druitt connection, I think it might be helpful.

None of this makes the Crackenthorpe clan into Ripper suspects, but it might add a bit to our knowledge of Montie.

Jeff

[GUT]

Sometime back on this website somebody said that Cookson was a name of one of the woman who married into the Druitt's (Montie's line) - that the woman's father was a man (possibly a Reverend) named Cookson. I'm not making that up. I have to admit this whole structure is shaky, but if anyone has the time to look into pair of connections between a Cookson family and the Druitts, and the Cookson/Crackenthorpe family with such a Cookson-Druitt connection, I think it might be helpful.

None of this makes the Crackenthorpe clan into Ripper suspects, but it might add a bit to our knowledge of Montie.

Jeff

Certainly interesting anyway.

However for

See what I am getting at. Let's say Darryl let's everyone know it's a suicide. Someone can say, "Gee, wasn't Hubert once saying somebody else connected to his family drowned himself a decade or so ago?" The possibility of opening up a real Pandora's Box of a scandal - maybe it was there, and maybe it had to be squelched quickly.

To be relevant to Montie as the ripper I think we'd need a closer relationship, however as you say it may add to our knowledge of him.

As in interesting aside I've found some family connections with Thomas Druitt, who baptised a number of my GG Grandfather's children and would seem to have remained friends with my GG Gfather upto his death in 1865. GGG Gfather was a Dorset clergyman so there may have been some connection. Nothing to do with nothing but always interesting.

[Mayerling]

To Mayerling

Again I am indebted to Howard Brown, and co.

You have to scroll down to the end:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7617

In only this picture is Sims'hair parted in the dead center like Montie Druitt's.

This is Sims confirming that the 1879 picture was an unusually thin visage for him:

'The Daily Express' August 1st 1904, an interview with Sims:

‘Mr. Sims said he believed the coffee-stall keeper came across his portrait on the cover of the first edition of “The Social Kaleidoscope”, in a shop in a side-street in Southwark. “It was a terrible portrait—taken when I was very ill. My face was drawn and haggard, and surprisingly like the Ripper ... Mr. Sims said that he had not the slightest doubt in his mind as to who the “Ripper” really was. “Nor have the police”, he continued, “In the archives of the Home Office are the name and history of the wretched man. He was a mad physician belonging to a highly respected family. He committed the crimes after having been in a lunatic asylum as a homicidal maniac.”

I argue that this textual evidence makes it very probable that both Macnaghten and Sims had perused photos of the late Montague Druitt between Feb 11th 1891 and March 1st of the same year.

Hi Jon,

Thanks again for the link to the thread where the picture was located.

One fly in the ointment, and it has nothing to do with body weight matters. It's hair. Facial hair. Sims (in that picture in THE SOCIAL KALEIDOSCOPE) had a beautiful flowing beard and moustache. Montie had a moustache (possibly) at one point, but by September 1888 we are unaware of it or of any beard). Did the coffeehouse proprietor's visitor have a flowing beard and moustache - and if so, were they real of fake whiskers?

Jeff

[The Good Michael]

I just looked up Crackenthorpe, and was kind of excited doing so. The photo I looked at bore no resemblance to Druitt, in my opinion. Different nose, Druitt was much darker-looking, and of course the mustache, though that isn't as important as the other two.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

This is the original as reproduced in the ‘North Eastern Gazette’ of September 23rd 1889:

"JACK THE RIPPER” SEEN BY EVERYONE BUT THE POLICE

‘The London edition of the “New York Herald” further says:--One of those innumerable cranks who have found “Jack the Ripper” called at the “Herald” office yesterday. He has written a complete history of the case, and intends to offer himself as a witness at the inquest on Tuesday next. “I am quite certain I know the man,” he said: “I have talked with him many times, and I can show you his photograph”; whereupon he produced one of Dagonet’s poems, and pointing to the portrait of George R. Sims said, “That’s like the man, sir. My man’s face was bronzed, and not quite so deathly pale; but travelling would produce that, sir. That’s like the man, sir.”

Sims never said the suspect was seen with a beard, not in 1889 or 1891, or 1902, not until the height of the Edwardian era--and even then only tentatively:

'Lloyds Weekly', Sept 22nd 1907, Gorge R. Sims, My Criminal museum--Who was Jack the Ripper?:

'One other man believed that he had seen the Ripper soon after the double murders of Sept. 30, and he may have done, but there was no absolute proof that he was correct in his surmise.

This man was a coffee-stall keeper. In the early hours of the date of these murders, between three and four in the morning, as far as I can remember, a man came to the stall and asked for a cup of coffee.

The customer stood drinking his coffee, and the stall-keeper said, thinking of the murder of Sept. 8, that the Ripper had been quiet for a bit. "But," he added, "I expect we shall hear of another murder before long."

"Yes," replied the customer, "you may hear of two before many hours are over."

He put down the cup, took some coppers out of his pocket, and stretched his hand across the stall to give them to the stall keeper. The sleeve of his coat was drawn up by the action and the shirt cuff came into view. The cuff of the shirt was stained with blood.

The man saw the coffee-stall keeper's eyes fixed on his blood-stained cuff, bade him a gruff "good-night" and walked rapidly away, quickly disappearing in the darkness.

That morning the coffee-stall keeper heard of the two murders, the one in Berner-street which was discovered about one in the morning,and the other in Mitre-square, which was not discovered until nearly two o'clock.

The man with the blood-stained cuffs had suggested between two and three in the morning that "two" murders might be heard of in a few hours.

The coffee-stall keeper gave his information to the police and to Dr. Forbes-Winslow; who at that time was writing letters on the subject of the Ripper murders in the Press and expressing a very strong opinion that they were the work of a homicidal maniac, who had a trained knowledge of surgery.

What was the man with the blood-stained cuff like? That was the question. The coffee-stall keeper described him from memory. A day or two later passing by a stationer's shop he saw exhibited in the window a sixpenny book entitled "The Social Kaleidoscope." On the cover was a portrait of the author.

"That is the living image of the man I saw," he exclaimed. He purchased the book and went off with it to Dr. Forbes-Winslow. "That is the man I saw, or his double," he exclaimed, handing over my little book to the astonished doctor, who knowing me fairly well, assured the coffee-stall keeper that it might be the double of the Ripper, but it certainly was not the fiend himself

I present the portrait as one put forward by a man who had every reason to believe that he had seen and conversed with Jack the Ripper, as the "double" of the Whitechapel Terror.

Various witnesses who had seen a man conversing with a woman who was soon afterwards found murdered said that he was a well-dressed man with a black moustache. Others described him as a man with a closely-trimmed beard.

The portrait on the cover of the first edition of "The Social Kaleidoscope," a book which twenty years ago was in most of the newsagents' and small booksellers' windows, was taken about 1879.'

In my opinion Sims has simply rewritten the tale to better suit his later polemical needs, but that he did resemble Montie Druitt when he was younger and when he was momentarily thinner due to illness.

[Wickerman]

The only time I recall a person of interest being described with a beard was the suspect who posted the Lusk Kidney.

Both Emily and her father, as well as John Cormack, gave full descriptions of the man they saw:

around forty-five years old
six-feet tall
slimly built
soft felt black hat, drawn over his forehead
stand-up collar, described as "Prussian or clerical" and partly turned up.
very long, black, single-breasted overcoat
face was sallow with a dark beard and moustache
spoke with an Irish accent

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/emily-marsh.html

[Roy Corduroy]

Facial hair. Sims (in that picture in THE SOCIAL KALEIDOSCOPE) had a beautiful flowing beard and moustache. Montie had a moustache (possibly) at one point, ...

Good point

The coffee stall keeper said the suspicious man looked just like this



Image courtesy of Stewart Evans



If beardless Montague Druitt was the man who came to the coffee stall that night, perhaps coffee man saw a resemblance to the Sims image in the upper part of the face and hair on top of head. Ignoring whether there was a beard or no beard. Either that or Druitt had grown a beard. Something.

[Mayerling]

I just looked up Crackenthorpe, and was kind of excited doing so. The photo I looked at bore no resemblance to Druitt, in my opinion. Different nose, Druitt was much darker-looking, and of course the mustache, though that isn't as important as the other two.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Can you possibly post the photograph of Crackenthorpe. I think we should have one up.

Thank you.

Jeff