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What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

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  • Originally posted by The Baron View Post

    Spending his life in a mental home is not a feeling, it is a situation, Druitt FELT he was going to be like mother, you can see the difference, cannot you ?!


    The Baron
    I always try to respond to posts Baron but, in this case, I have no need as Paul has said all that’s needed in his post #884.
    Regards

    Herlock






    "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AndrewL View Post
      If it was relatively strong (i.e. Druitt was seen with bloodstained clothing on the morning of November 9), then why did it take Macnaghten some time to mull it over before becoming convinced?
      Isn't the answer (or at least one answer) self-evident? Druitt wasn't the only pony in the race. There were other suspects with 'strong circs.' (Kosminski, for one). Ultimately, Macnaghten concluded that no one could have survived the violence of Miller's Court without descending into madness and suicide, and thus he settled on MJD as his probable Ripper.

      Boring answer, perhaps, but that is what a strictly literal reading of the text seems to indicate.


      Hi Simon. Let's fall back on the old cliché of "means, motive, and opportunity."

      Macnaghten and Anderson had the means and opportunity to perpetrate an elaborate charade.

      What you haven't provided is a coherent motive.

      All the best. RP

      Comment


      • Hi RJ,

        It's fairly obvious that Macnaghten was papering over some sensitive cracks. Hence his knee-jerk reaction when the 1894 totally BS politically-inspired Sun story hit the streets. Why had he not mentioned any of the details in his memorandum in 1891 when it was first mooted that Cutbush might be the Ripper?

        If we all shook off this Druitt/Kosminski/Ostrog nonsense we might actually discover what Macnaghten was hiding.

        E mälama pono!

        Simon
        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
          Hi Jon,

          I also trawled through "Case notes, male patients, 1884-1893," at the Manor House Asylum, on the off chance of catching a fleeting glimpse of MJD.

          No such luck.

          Regards,

          Simon
          Thanks for that Simon.
          I wasn't aware the Manor House records survived.
          Is there an admissions register where we can check the names from, say, Nov 9/1888 to Dec 31/1888?

          If the records consist of loose files or pages, how can we be confident the male records for the time window you chose are complete?
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Baron View Post

            Spending his life in a mental home is not a feeling, it is a situation, Druitt FELT he was going to be like mother, you can see the difference, cannot you ?!


            The Baron
            The words are not his actual words, it is a paraphrase by the coroner.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • Hi Jon,

              Caution is your middle name.

              https://wellcomelibrary.org/item/b19...04&c=0&m=0&s=0

              Scroll down for male patients.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by AndrewL View Post

                Thanks Wickerman - that is certainly a viable hypothesis. But it still seems to me that there is a bit of a 'Catch-22' about Macnaghten's "private information". If it was relatively strong (i.e. Druitt was seen with bloodstained clothing on the morning of November 9), then why did it take Macnaghten some time to mull it over before becoming convinced?
                Hi Andrew.
                Can you point me to what you read that makes you think he took a while to think it over?

                If it was relatively weak (i.e. Druitt had seemed a bit anxious or depressed), why should we place too much weight on it today?
                If that's all it was most of London would have been on the suspect list.

                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                  Hi Jon,

                  Caution is your middle name.

                  https://wellcomelibrary.org/item/b19...04&c=0&m=0&s=0

                  Scroll down for male patients.

                  Regards,

                  Simon
                  I was hoping my ancestors casebook would be there alas they don’t go far enough back o cover him. (1845)
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                    Hi Jon,

                    Caution is your middle name.

                    https://wellcomelibrary.org/item/b19...04&c=0&m=0&s=0

                    Scroll down for male patients.

                    Regards,

                    Simon
                    Much appreciated Simon.

                    I notice the register for Voluntary Boarders (Male & Female) only begins in 1896, such a shame. This is where I would have expected Montie to be listed, after his dismissal from Blackheath School (based on David Andersen's theory).
                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • ""
                      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                      Hi Andrew.
                      Can you point me to what you read that makes you think he took a while to think it over?
                      Hi Wick, sorry for butting in, but doesn't the Aberconway version somewhat suggest this?

                      “"I enumerate the cases of 3 men against whom the Police held very reasonable suspicion. Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2., but I have always held strong opinions regarding no. 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become.”"




                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                        ""

                        Hi Wick, sorry for butting in, but doesn't the Aberconway version somewhat suggest this?

                        “"I enumerate the cases of 3 men against whom the Police held very reasonable suspicion. Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2., but I have always held strong opinions regarding no. 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become.”"



                        Yes just another senior officers opinion that some have over reacted to, no different to the opinions given by Littlechild and Abberline both of those with no corroboration to support any of them?

                        So which one was the real killer ?

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • Hi RJ,

                          Macnaghten was punting Druitt from his memorandum; and both he and Anderson knew that Ostrog had an iron-clad alibi.

                          So that left the Polish Jew.

                          For Anderson, Kozminski was a matter of Hobson's Choice.

                          Which should also tell you everything you need to know about the Swanson marginalia.

                          Regards,

                          Simon
                          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                            ""

                            Hi Wick, sorry for butting in, but doesn't the Aberconway version somewhat suggest this?

                            “"I enumerate the cases of 3 men against whom the Police held very reasonable suspicion. Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2., but I have always held strong opinions regarding no. 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become.”"
                            Hi RJ.

                            Mac. does say he thought it over but he doesn't say for how long. This is why I wondered what Andrew meant by saying "some time", how long does he think?

                            On reflection perhaps Andrew was referring to the time between the publication of the Farqharson letter in 1891, and the Memorandum in 1894, but the date of the latter was predicated on the publication of the Sun article, otherwise the Memorandum would never have appeared.
                            We can't know how long it took Mac. to put a name to the suspect mentioned by Farqharson (assuming what I said is correct).

                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                              Hi Andrew.
                              Can you point me to what you read that makes you think he took a while to think it over?

                              Hi Wickerman,

                              Well, perhaps I'm reading too much into it - but to me the phrases "after much careful and deliberate consideration" and "the more I think the matter over" suggest quite a lengthy mental process. In other words, the "private information" can't have been something instantly conclusive but something that gained greater significance over a period of time. I find it very hard to imagine what that might be.


                              If that's all it was most of London would have been on the suspect list.
                              Yes, exactly. And I know from studying other high-profile murder cases that it is quite common for people to fear their relatives might be responsible. Often this is based on nothing but paranoia, worrying about their loved ones, reading the newspapers and making a link between them. But I would have expected Macnaghten to be well aware of this factor and taken it into account.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                                Isn't the answer (or at least one answer) self-evident? Druitt wasn't the only pony in the race. There were other suspects with 'strong circs.' (Kosminski, for one). Ultimately, Macnaghten concluded that no one could have survived the violence of Miller's Court without descending into madness and suicide, and thus he settled on MJD as his probable Ripper.

                                Boring answer, perhaps, but that is what a strictly literal reading of the text seems to indicate.


                                Hi Simon. Let's fall back on the old cliché of "means, motive, and opportunity."

                                Macnaghten and Anderson had the means and opportunity to perpetrate an elaborate charade.

                                What you haven't provided is a coherent motive.

                                All the best. RP
                                Hi RP,

                                Yes, quite possibly. If so, this implies that the "private information" was very far from conclusive but took on greater significance in Macnaghten's mind when added to the fact of Druitt's suicide. Then again, he thought Kosminski was in an asylum by March 1889 - which from his point of view was almost as good an explanation for the murders ceasing.

                                Comment

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