What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

[GUT]

One needs only to accept that either Tabram or Mckenzey, was a ripper victim, and that will be more than enough to free Druitt from this crimes, once and forever.

I believe both of them were ripper victims.

He has nothing more going for him than for example Ostrog.


The Baron

How does Tabran rule him out?

[The Baron]

How does Tabran rule him out?

If I remember correctly, he was not in London when it happened.


The Baron

[GUT]

If I remember correctly, he was not in London when it happened.


The Baron

I assume you mean that Druitt played cricket at Bournemouth on 3-4 August and then again on 10-11 August. These were consecutive weekends.

He was a man working two careers, a journey of about three hours by train, yet people assume he spent the week there doing who knows what, rather than making the journey to catch up on some work?

Sorry nowhere near enough to rule him out.

[The Baron]

You cannot put him in London at the time, in contrast, the evidence shows he was in another city during that time from the month. Thats of course without mentioning the narrow time frame of the chapman murder.

It is upon you to rule him in at first place.

The Baron

[GUT]

You cannot put him in London at the time, in contrast, the evidence shows he was in another city during that time from the month. Thats of course without mentioning the narrow time frame of the chapman murder.

It is upon you to rule him in at first place.

The Baron

No the evidence puts him in another city the weekends before and after, we have no idea where he was during the week between, so it in no way makes it impossible. And yes the Chapman time frame is very tight, but again not impossibly so.

[c.d.]

Here is the quote from the Memorandum -- "He was sexually insane and from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

I know we are parsing words here but he does not say that he received this private information directly from Druitt's family. Someone close to the family could have relayed it to him second hand. He could have meant that it came directly from the family but that is not clear.

c.d.

[GUT]

Here is the quote from the Memorandum -- "He was sexually insane and from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

I know we are parsing words here but he does not say that he received this private information directly from Druitt's family. Someone close to the family could have relayed it to him second hand. He could have meant that it came directly from the family but that is not clear.

c.d.

Certainly unclear in my opinion the “common reading” would be he got it second hand from a non family member, but that is no certainty.

[JeffHamm]

Here is the quote from the Memorandum -- "He was sexually insane and from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

I know we are parsing words here but he does not say that he received this private information directly from Druitt's family. Someone close to the family could have relayed it to him second hand. He could have meant that it came directly from the family but that is not clear.

c.d.

I agree, it reads as if he was told by a 3rd party of Druitt's family's suspicions. Also, he indicates he has "little doubt", not that he is "convinced" that his family suspected him. Finally, given that the Memorandum goes on to list two more suspects (Kosminski and Ostrog), it's clear that the case was not solved, even in his view (although he does go on to say that he leans strongly towards Druitt). If he felt the case was solved, then there would be no need to list the other two. His information about Kosminski is also inaccurate (dates about his being moved to the asylum are 2 years after the Kelly murder, which McNaghten must consider the last of the Ripper series or Druitt is out because he was dead for McKenzie and Cole) but he says it was shortly after the last murder. Also, Kosminski's records at the asylum do not indicate he was violent (one incident where he attacked someone with a chair, but that's it I believe). Also, he was quite small (7 stone 8 lbs, 106 lbs), which doesn't really fit the "stout or broad shoulders" type descriptions generally given by witnesses who may have seen the victims with the Ripper (I accept, it's arguable). Druitt was also lean and athletic, rather than stout, etc. Ostrog was 5' 11"", and would have been unusually tall for the time, and certainly not the couple inches taller than the victims (again, based upon eye-witness accounts, which is only useful to the extent they did see the Ripper - take as you may). And again, McNaghten's description of Ostrog as a homicdal maniac does not jibe with his known crimes (mostly theft and getting money by telling tales; his "insanity" also appears to have suddenly appeared when he was being charged again for theft and he feared another long sentence - at the time everyone said he was faking insanity as well). In other words, McNaghten's description of all three "suspects" is suspect. He was writing a letter more to indicate that Cutbush wasn't a great suspect rather than listing three "prime suspects". He mentions a city PC who may have seen the Ripper near Mitre Square, which he is probably confusing with the Met PC Smith who described a man he saw near Stride, etc. He was working from memroy, not notes (hence the number of factual errors). Also he says "... although very many homicidal maniacs were at one time, or another, suspected. I enumerate the cases of 3 men against whom Police held reasonable suspicions." So again, he's listing, from memory, three of many that would make a better case than Cutbush. His leaning towards Druitt, in this context, allows for the face-saving point that the Ripper could be dead, so they can never truly solve it, etc. Abberline, I believe, dismisses all three of these suspects (and ends up punting on Chapman for some reason).

Basically, Druitt's death and gossip seem to be the basis upon which his name appears as a suspect at all. He's worth looking into simply because he is, at least, named as a Person of Interest, but as his life and background were explored, nothing is showing up that makes him any better a suspect than Pizer, or Ludwig, or other named contemporary suspects who were later cleared. There hasn't even been anything to link him to the Whitechappel area (the closest is that his cousin worked for a doctor who had a clinic in the area, so maybe Druitt visited his cousin - but there's no indication they were even close so that tentative link is doubly tentative and starting to smell of desperation). Kosminski appears to be a harmless schizophrenic, suffering from auditory halucinations that prevented him from working or bathing or eating food given to him by other people, so would not appear to be one who could spare a few pence for the victims' services. And Ostrog was a con-man, who likewise doesn't appear violent. While these 3 suspects were worth looking into when their names were uncovered, searching just isn't making the picture clearer.

Anyway, that's my take, admittedly influenced greatly by Sugden, whom I've been re-reading, but his presentation of is refreshingly thin when it comes to speculation and forcing things to fit some pet theory.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

One needs only to accept that either Tabram or Mckenzey, was a ripper victim, and that will be more than enough to free Druitt from this crimes, once and forever.

I believe both of them were ripper victims.

He has nothing more going for him than for example Ostrog.


The Baron

I dont really see the point of this Baron.

In effect, what you’re saying is: “ one only needs to accept two propositions that are only accepted by a very small minority of those interested in the case and, bingo, Druitt is innocent.”

As for having nothing more going for him than Ostrog then I’ll ditto post #130.

No one can seriously put Ostrog in the same league as Druitt when it comes to suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There hasn't even been anything to link him to the Whitechappel area (the closest is that his cousin worked for a doctor who had a clinic in the area,

Jeff, from memory weren’t Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk? This is 15 minutes walk from Whitechapel.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here is the quote from the Memorandum -- "He was sexually insane and from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

I know we are parsing words here but he does not say that he received this private information directly from Druitt's family. Someone close to the family could have relayed it to him second hand. He could have meant that it came directly from the family but that is not clear.

c.d.

And we now know that Macnaghten was very good friends with Sir Vivian Majendie who was related to the Druitt family by marriage providing a plausible source for the ‘private info.’

[The Baron]

I dont really see the point of this Baron.

In effect, what you’re saying is: “ one only needs to accept two propositions that are only accepted by a very small minority of those interested in the case and, bingo, Druitt is innocent.”

As for having nothing more going for him than Ostrog then I’ll ditto post #130.

No one can seriously put Ostrog in the same league as Druitt when it comes to suspects.

Does (either..or) in my post means: accept two propositions, for you Herlock ?!

"only accepted by a very small minority"

Those who believe either Tabram or Mckenzey was a ripper victim are (only accepted by a very small minority) Thats what you think Herlock ?!

Again, there is nothing more going for him than Ostrog.

(Macnaghten was very good friends with Sir Vivian Majendie who was related to the Druitt family by marriage)

.. thats why he thought Druitt was a doctor, 41 years old, who killed himself right away after the last murder, didn't he Herlock ?!


The Baron

[Joshua Rogan]

Jeff, from memory weren’t Druitt’s chambers at Kings Bench Walk? This is 15 minutes walk from Whitechapel.

Even the nearest murder site was a mile and a half away, Herlock, clear across the city. That's half an hour at my (average) walking pace, and over 50 minutes to Buck's Row. While clearly not impossible, it's hardly a handy pier a terre that he could quickly access to
clean up. If that was his aim, why head to Whitechapel and not a closer district?
Although as it happens, there was a (different) Dorset Street and a George Yard within two minutes walk of his offices.

[Joshua Rogan]

In effect, what you’re saying is: “ one only needs to accept two propositions that are only accepted by a very small minority of those interested in the case and, bingo, Druitt is innocent.”

Let's not forget that the C5 are Macnaghton's suggestion, hardly an unbiased selection if he believed Druitt to be the Ripper.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Simon,

Would we be looking at Druitt as a suspect if Macnaghten hadn't mentioned him in his memorandum?

No of course not.

Further, if Lady Aberconway had not shared the memorandum with Daniel Farson, and Tom Cullen not stole Farson's briefcase and published his own book introducing Druitt. And then ... well, you get the idea.

Roy