Druitt and Monro

[Fiver]

I agree and accept that things do appear straight forward Doc. My speculation though (and that’s all that it was) is that the note could in theory have been written two months or more earlier but he decided not to commit suicide at that time and put the note into a drawer and forgot about it.

As described it could have been written any time after Druitt's mother was committed to the asylum.

The intriguing question of course is - what else was on that note? Something incriminating? Perhaps family information that the coroner agreed not to make public? Or maybe evidence of his deteriorating mental health that might have embarrassed his family? Or maybe he wrote about the reason for his sacking?

"Witness [William Druitt] had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him (produced). — The Coroner read the letter, which was to this effect:-"Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die." - Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette, 5 January 1889

But the note to William Druitt was not the only note.

"The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted." - Dorset Chronicle, 10 January 1889

If that's correct, we have:
* "a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide."
* A letter addressed to William Druitt, which was summarized as "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die."

[Fiver]

Why? Do only close family members talk?

How would Macnaghton know that Druitt was Vivian Majende's deceased uncle's step-granddaughter's husband's cousin? Why would Macnaghton ask Majende and not Druitt's siblings, coworkers, employers, or fellow club members?

[Fiver]

Here's a rough sketch of the connections. Highlighted in green are people who were alive when Isabel Hill married Charles Druitt.

[mklhawley]

I wrote "Druitt Derangement Syndrome" as a joke, but it is happening right before our eyes in real time.

Let us examine the symptoms of this sad malady.

1. Never admit an error no matter how obvious or insulting:

Roger proved Fiver was mistaken about his assertion that there was no evidence of a friendship between Macnaghten and Majendie. Did Fiver admit his mistake and apologise to the Hainsworths? Not a chance.

Fiver claimed that no source about Druitt's inquest has William claiming that there are no other relatives of the deceased other than himself and their sectioned mother. Not ture, Apology...? Not a chance.

2. Accuse the Druittists of gross errors they did not make because they did not say them:

Fiver accuses Jonathan and Christine of claiming that Macnaghten refers to Majendie as his source for the "private information" in his memoirs. He doesn't and they didn't. Apology? See symptom #1.

3. Be deliberately obtuse as if you have never lived on planet Earth, never met human beings and think every connection is as difficult as rocket science:

Vivian Majendie's clan was linked to the Druitt clan by a marriage. A relative of the colonel's who carried his surname as her maiden name had married a son of the late, famous Dr. Robert Druitt. According to the Hainsworths this Druitt, the Rev Charles Druitt, Montague's cousin, likely took his confession. If the whole story came out the Liberal tabloids would have played havoc with the Tory Majendie's reputation. It really isn't rocket science.

4. Keep repeating disproven and unfair accusations as if nobody has addressed them:

Jon made it clear that when he wrote about a nephew of Dr Druitt being arrested for stabbing a sex worker that was his theory from the reference to a "barrister" near Druitt's chambers, e.g. as to how Druitt ended up on a C.I.D. list yet only as a minor suspect. The very memoir chapter which Fiver quotes from by Macnaghten says that: "the Whitechapel murderer, in all probability, put an end to himself soon after the Dorset Street affair in November 1888, certain facts, pointing to this conclusion, were not in possession of the police till some years after I became a detective officer." So, some facts were known but more imprant ones arrived later and posthumously and to Macnaghten personally.

Rookie keeps writing that Macnaghten was covering up in the service of "powerful and influential people". No, he wasn't as they weren't and the Hainsworths have said so again and again. Now I have. Cue being ignored....

The old chestnut about Druitt not being a doctor, even though multile sources about multiple suspects - including Ostrog and Sanders - show that Victorians were loose with suh definitions. To have studied some medicine even without graduatin could see you described as a "doctor" or "medical student" as Abberline shows in 1903. Mac's words for file, "said to be a doctor" means that it is hearsay he had medical training not stablished by a certificate of graduation. In the same file he is certain that Druitt was "sexually insane". He, Macnaghten is certain. How? How could he be so certain? Well he would be, as would be the family who "believed", if the "barrister" of 1887 is Druitt and then or later he ended up on a long, long police list of suspects.

5. Commit exactly the same sins of treating theory as fact just as you accuse the Druittists of doing:

Certain posters keep repeating that Druitt was fired from the school on Nov 30 1888. This is a theory because that is not what the source says: it very ambiguously writes that this happened on Dec 30 1888. What did? Either Druitt was sacked, or that is when his brother, William, arrived at the school. That latter interpretation is the likeliest as the reporter seems to be puzzled as to why it took so long for the sibling to investigate. Whatever, claiming Nov 30 as the true date is not a fact thoug goodness knows so many treat it as if it is. Consider that not a single source links his firing from the school with Druitt's suicide which remains inexplicable.

Far more likely if he was fired, not allowed to resign, is that he was let go because he had unaccoutably vanished.

A further consideration is that we don't know if Druitt was fired from the school; perhaps the reporter, the only one to claim this detail, misunderstood the brother saying Montague had been fired from, say, his sporting club.

Or, how about we grasp that we are relying for everything at that inquest from brother William; who believed - rightly or wrongly - that his brother had been "The Ripper". He just made stuff up: no other relatives, the note, the firing, etc.

Jon claims he has made only two discoveries. The first is that in Sims' writings from 1902 he disguises William Druitt's search for his absent sibling into a search by "friends" (Griffiths had changed the family into friends in his book of 1898). This detail could not have been in P. C. Moulson's report on the recovery and identification of Montague's rotting corpse. For Macnaghgten to know this if only from the Chicwick press account means he knew M. J. Druitt had been a barrister and a teacher and had killed himself in early December 1888.

Once again I feel sorry for Christine. She discovered what nobody else had; Diplock and William knew each other from a previous inquest into another Druitt suicide. A nod and a wink between gents.

The proof is that the reporters never mention the obvious headline: "Dr Druitt's Nephew - Suicide". The late Robert Druitt was one of the most famous physicians in late Victorian England because his treatise on the healthy effects of light wines was used in advertising. His name was exploited years after he was dead. Hence he was one of the few docotr's names known to working class people. But the press did not make this connection because William and Diplock made sure they did not.

6. Refuse to examine sources meaured against other sources. By keeping them in siloed isolation you guarantee they will be forever misunderstood:

Macnaghten writing in 1914 that Druitt killed himself the day after the Kelly atrocity, or maybe the night of that day, or maybe the day after, as he keeps it vague and imprecise, and that is a bombshell revelation and one broadly accuate to the real Druitt. From Farquharson's discreet invention of the confession in action by killing himself instantly as Sims will persistently propagate, for years, as evidence of his guilt that was the narrative. Macnaghten has deliberately stepped back from it, though careful not to give the real date as that would put the Druitts and Majendies in potential peril. To make sure his readers understood that he was distancing himself from Sims' timline, Macnaghten quotes it in his memoirs in another chapter. by implication he is writing that I, the police chief know the real story and Sims, the reporter, does not. Mac writes that the murderer killed himself "soon after" not within hours (th same phrasin as the Vicar of 1899 whom sims had rudely denounced for claiming it was "soon after").

Good news - there is a cure?:

Read the Hainsworths' darn book! I have and enjoyed it. I also do not agree with their conclusions (see the Tumblety thread where I have laid out why). But I agree that they have made a strong case that the long standing portrait of Macnaghten as Scotland Yard's Mr Magoo is untenable and even ludicrous.

[Wickerman]

. . .

"Witness [William Druitt] had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him (produced). — The Coroner read the letter, which was to this effect:-"Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die." - Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette, 5 January 1889

But the note to William Druitt was not the only note.

"The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted." - Dorset Chronicle, 10 January 1889

If that's correct, we have:
* "a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide."
* A letter addressed to William Druitt, which was summarized as "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die."

Yes, this is correct.
There are several press reports here on Casebook, The Southern Guardian, of Jan. 1st, 1889 provides a reference for their story.
The date of Jan. 1st. is incorrect, the publication day was Saturday, the date was 5th Jan., not 1st.

The source for this story was the Echo, of 3rd Jan.

An inquiry was yesterday held by Dr. Diplock, at Chiswick, respecting the death of Montague John Druitt, 31 years of age, who was found drowned in the Thames. The deceased was identified by his brother, Mr. William Harvey Druitt, a solicitor residing at Bournemouth, who stated that the deceased was a barrister-at-law, but had lately been an assistant at a school at Blackheath. The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, “Since Friday I have felt as if I was going to be like mother,” who had for some months been mentally afflicted. Evidence having been given as to discovering deceased in the Thames — upon his body were found a cheque for £60 and £16 in gold — the Jury returned a verdict of "Suicide whilst of unsound mind."

Unfortunately, the "Since Friday" quote is incomplete in the Echo, the report in the Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette, is more complete:
"Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die."

There is also a brief press report in the Richmond and Twickenham Times, 5th Jan. 1889, where a further quote was provided.

Dr. Diplock on Wednesday held an inquest at the "Lamb Tap" on the body of Montague John Druitt, aged 31, whose body was recovered from the Thames off Thorneycrofts' Wharf, on Monday, by a waterman named Henry Winslade. The pockets of the deceased, who was a stranger to the district were found filled with stones, and after a letter had been read in which he wrote to the effect that "what he intended to do would be the best for all parties," the jury returned a verdict of "Suicide by drowning whilst temporarily insane."

The last quote : "what he intended to do would be the best for all parties," could be the journalists paraphrase for the previous quote in the Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette.
Or, perhaps the latter quote is from the second letter?

One further point, we read that William Druitt had Montague's things searched 'where he resided'.
According to Chris Phillips, the Electoral Register for the City of London in 1889 shows his residence was 9 Eliot Place, not 9 Kings Bench Walk.
It would appear then that Montague's things at 9 Eliot Place is where the search was conducted, and where the letters were found.

[FISHY1118]

To Fishy1118

Even I, who do not think Druitt was Jack, know from the Hainsworths' book that what you wrote is total bunkum.

In 1913, Macnaghten - whose name had never before been associated with the Whitechapel crimes - startled the reporter from "The Daily Mail" who was doing a final interview with the retiring Assistant Commissioner. Macnaghten claimed that he knew the identity of the murderer who had, he reassured him, had killed himself long ago. That this was a "secret" which had come to him personally; that he knew the identity of the maniac in question very well ("that remarkable man"); and that he had destroyed any and all incriminating documentation (implying it was his property, not the Yard's).

The following year in his memoirs, "Days of My Years" he devoted an entire chapter to the case - and is obviously adapting both earlier versions of his Report (one was for public consumption and one for file). He drops all suspects and leaves it at Druitt (albeit he cannot use the name as the killer put himself beyond the protection of due process). He implies the definitive solution came to him, personally and posthumously, from the "protean madman's" own people who knew their member was "absented".

So according to the Daily Mail, Macnaghten reassures the interviewer that someone else told him the identity of the murderer ? Where exacly is the part where Mac actually names ''Druitt'' as a his perferred suspect? So in fact Hainsworth book tells us bumkun.

Implies , Opinions , Speculations , Heresay + $5.50 will only get you a cup of coffee.

[mklhawley]

Jon has let me know he had a good laugh at my 'diagnosis' but advised me not to waste any more time defending him and Chris anymore. It's pointless; some of the people really are deranged and unfair, e.g. always shamelessly moving the goal posts or relitigating what has been settled.

Not a minute later Fiver proved exactly their point by trying to argue that Druitt is not Macnaghten's suspect/solution?!?

For the record, from the draft or 'Aberconway' version of the Macnaghten Memorandum:

"No.1 Mr M. J. Druitt ... Personally ... I have always held strong opinons about No.1, and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become ..."

Hasta La Vista, baby

[Wickerman]

I also have seen the 3rd December date quoted . . .

Would you happen to remember where?

[FISHY1118]

Jon has let me know he had a good laugh at my 'diagnosis' but advised me not to waste any more time defending him and Chris anymore. It's pointless; some of the people really are deranged and unfair, e.g. always shamelessly moving the goal posts or relitigating what has been settled.

Not a minute later Fiver proved exactly their point by trying to argue that Druitt is not Macnaghten's suspect/solution?!?

For the record, from the draft or 'Aberconway' version of the Macnaghten Memorandum:

"No.1 Mr M. J. Druitt ... Personally ... I have always held strong opinons about No.1, and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become ..."

Hasta La Vista, baby

No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was on [3] a beat near Mitre Square) and no proof could in any way ever be brought against anyone, although very many homicidal maniacs were at one time, or another, suspected. I enumerate the cases of 3 men against whom Police held very [4] [page 6A] [re]asonable suspicion. Personally, & after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2. but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become. The truth, however, will never be known, and did indeed, at one time lie at the bottom of the Thames, if my conjections [5] be correct. Aberconway Version .

No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer; many homicidal maniacs were suspected, but no shadow of proof could be thrown on any one. I may mention the cases of 3 men, any one of whom would have been more likely than Cutbush to have committed this series of murders:- MLMacnaghten 23rd. Feb. 1894 Official Version

[Fiver]

Would you happen to remember where?

"Druitt was last seen alive on 3 December 1888." - Jack the Ripper: A Suspect Guide, Christopher J. Morley, E-book, 2005

Here's a Casebook essay that says - "Initially there was confusion over the date of MJD's suicide. His tombstone has 4 December and many authors sloppily propagate 3 December (although [Begg] at least modifies this in a note) but [Sugden] convincingly shows it was almost certainly Saturday 1 December."

[mklhawley]

But it was the Aberconway version and strong opinion about Druitt that was propagated to the public in 1891, 1894 and then regularly from 1898 and Griffiths' book - which at the time caused a big stir about this drowned doctor solution.

[mklhawley]

The late David Andersen had a theory that Druitt was a few days in Chiswick at the Manor House private asylum - where his mother would be placed months later. The Hainsworths added that the Tuke brothers, the physicians who ran the asylum, were friends of the Rev Charles Druitt (letters prove it).

Jon and Chris also added into the mix the newspaper report that police were, at that time, systematically checking both state and private institutions for the mentally ill looking for Jack. On Dec 4, Druitt found this out and, trying to do right by his family who faced ruined if he was caught and identified, he slipped out a door, or window, or gate, and walked into the adjacent Thames.

[The Rookie Detective]

Yes, this is correct.
There are several press reports here on Casebook, The Southern Guardian, of Jan. 1st, 1889 provides a reference for their story.
The date of Jan. 1st. is incorrect, the publication day was Saturday, the date was 5th Jan., not 1st.

The source for this story was the Echo, of 3rd Jan.

An inquiry was yesterday held by Dr. Diplock, at Chiswick, respecting the death of Montague John Druitt, 31 years of age, who was found drowned in the Thames. The deceased was identified by his brother, Mr. William Harvey Druitt, a solicitor residing at Bournemouth, who stated that the deceased was a barrister-at-law, but had lately been an assistant at a school at Blackheath. The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, “Since Friday I have felt as if I was going to be like mother,” who had for some months been mentally afflicted. Evidence having been given as to discovering deceased in the Thames — upon his body were found a cheque for £60 and £16 in gold — the Jury returned a verdict of "Suicide whilst of unsound mind."

Unfortunately, the "Since Friday" quote is incomplete in the Echo, the report in the Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette, is more complete:
"Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die."

There is also a brief press report in the Richmond and Twickenham Times, 5th Jan. 1889, where a further quote was provided.

Dr. Diplock on Wednesday held an inquest at the "Lamb Tap" on the body of Montague John Druitt, aged 31, whose body was recovered from the Thames off Thorneycrofts' Wharf, on Monday, by a waterman named Henry Winslade. The pockets of the deceased, who was a stranger to the district were found filled with stones, and after a letter had been read in which he wrote to the effect that "what he intended to do would be the best for all parties," the jury returned a verdict of "Suicide by drowning whilst temporarily insane."

The last quote : "what he intended to do would be the best for all parties," could be the journalists paraphrase for the previous quote in the Acton, Chiswick & Turnham Green Gazette.
Or, perhaps the latter quote is from the second letter?

One further point, we read that William Druitt had Montague's things searched 'where he resided'.
According to Chris Phillips, the Electoral Register for the City of London in 1889 shows his residence was 9 Eliot Place, not 9 Kings Bench Walk.
It would appear then that Montague's things at 9 Eliot Place is where the search was conducted, and where the letters were found.

But its important to acknowledge that most of the barristers who had an qddress listed as '9 Kings Bench Walk" didn't actually live and reside there.

Templeton and Cox was the firm that ran out of 9 Kings Bench Walk.

If we look at both the 1881 and 1891 censuses, we can see that 9 Kings Bench Walk was not a full time residential address.

So Druitt wouldn't have been listed as living at 9 Kings Bench Walk anyway.

The address was used as Temporary Chambers/accommodation and weren't permanent residential quarters.

Essentially, it was actively more of a business address.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Would you happen to remember where?

A-Z, "Last seen alive c. 3 December1888". The "c" means "about", of course, which is why I wrote that it was "someone's estimation". I took it to be a rough estimate based on Druitt not being seen at chambers for "more than a week", from William's evidence that he was advised of his brother's absence on 11th December.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Personally, & after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2. but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1.,

Perhaps I am mistaken here but the way I read this - Personally, & after much careful & deliberate consideration. MM thought about the circumstances of the murders, and of each man and - but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1, that it was, mainly , [ with some circumstantial evidence ] his own subjective feelings based on what he believed the ripper may be like - A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide. Note theory. If MM had, more or less direct evidence that Druitt was the killer the after much and careful deliberation [ going over the cases of at least two other men ], would not have been needed . Sure he can mention other suspects likelier to have been the killer other than Cutbush [ in his way of thinking ] but careful and deliberate consideration ? Also note strong opinions. Opinion is opinion , sometimes right as in Gary Ridgway [ green river ]and Sheriff David Eckhart, sometimes wrong as in Detective George Oldfield with the taxi driver Terry Hawkshaw , who was initially seen as a strong suspect for the Yorkshire ripper murders .

Regards Darryl