Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Roy Corduroy]

Oh, OK Jonathan.

You suggest Montie had confessed to the 'vicar' who told William. So the dates, or anything William said at inquest doesn't really matter. Because he already knew.

If I understand you correctly. Because you normally have the 'vicar' as your hole card.

Roy

[Jonathan H]

To Roy

I am not being inconsistent.

Either the Vicar, eg. Charles Druitt (though not a Vicar until 1891, when the story leaked out of Dorset) heard the confession, then Montie left word he had disappeared abroad, then nobody heard from him so the cousin came forward to brief brother Willam -- breaking the confessional seal.

Or it was a priest unrelated to the family -- and so was the Vicar of 1899, who maybe the same person.

Perhaps it was the Rev. William Hough, Montie's brother-in-law, to whom he confessed as the former was nearby in London and worked among the poor. He had a brother, George, who was a Vicar in the north in 1899 (albeit the Midlands), or there is Phillip Druitt, Montie's brother, who was a priest in Yorkshire in 1899 (though not yet a priest in 1888).

My 'ace' as you call it is also textual and thematic.

When Farquharson gets hold of the story in early 1891, it has been re-shaped in the retelling; the murder and self-murder have been compressed in time to the same evening.

This is the incriminating factor which seems to have convinced 'a good many people' to whom the MP has so indiscreetly confided in.

But this is arguably the same theme as the 1899 Vicar's factual-fictional account, the latter of course more accurately matching the real Druitt's timeline.

In the Farquharson/Sims version the Ripper savaged Mary Kelly and then, overcome with the horror, he 'confessed' by immediately killing himself.

This is the bit of fiction Macnaghten will keep in his mixture of fact and fiction via Sims when orchestrating the Drowned Doctor solution for the public -- because he knew it was safely wrong and thus rendered the real Druitt unrecoverable and unrecogniseable (in his memoirs Mac stepped back from the incriminating double bang, as was noted by a policeman-reviewer in 1950),

If Mac had mistakenly thought it was the correct tineline he would have changed it as he altererd nearly every other bit of data between 1898 and 1917.

As often happens when a true story gets retold having been only half-heard or overheard: it gets tidied up. In this case a melodramatic confession in action stands in for a confession in word and then self-destructive action.

I think the family thought Montie was abroad, costing him his vocations. This was very serious and perplexing.

Over Christmas 1888 they did not hear from him. More worry and concern builds.

Then the priest stepped forward, whomever that was, and William scrambled into action.

By the time he testified at the inquest Willima Druitt had one mission.

To build a firewall around himself and his family who now faced a catastrophe: they were related to the author of the Whitechapel crimes. Montie was safely dead so he could no longer harm another woman. Why then come forward with the truth when it could do no public good -- and do them all a great deal of harm?

When he produced his late brother's alleged and allusive suicide note he was with-holding from the inquest his belief, right or wrong, that his brother had killed himself because he was, or believed he was Jack the Ripper.

I realise that, here on this site, to write such a thing is the worst, most poisonous, most politically incorrect blaspheme but that is what I honestly [albeit provisionally] believe, based on the little we have.

[Abby Normal]

Yes. that's the point I made.

Depending on the primary source only the brother received a note, or it was just Valentine, or it is said that they both did.

I think Druitt had confessed to a priest (who may have himself been a family member). He knew that he was going to be sectioned by his family -- who would be ruined -- and he decided to appear to have fled abroad (which got him sacked from his school and sporting club). In fact Druitt had ended his life with another mortal sin: self-murder.

So he went AWOL because he confessed that he was JtR to a priest? And thought the priest would tell his family?and that his family would have him sectioned? I presume that by sectioned you mean forcibly put away to an insane asylum?

[Jonathan H]

Yes.

And the priest may have been a family member himself, so the clock was definitely ticking -- despite the sacrosanct nature of the Act of Confession (there are Anglicans, not Catholics).

Check out the thread 'Druitt in the Confessional?' The odds that this is not about Druitt are very long, but not impossible.

[David Andersen]

Montague could not have been affected by his Mothers suicide. For one thing she did not commit suicide. For another she did not die until almost two years after Montague. Interestingly enough though she died just a few hundred yards from where Montagues body was found in the river at Chiswick.

[Hatchett]

I think the thing about Druitt is this. MacNoughton was looking back, hence the canonical five. Druitt, who certaintly wasnt a suspect at the time, became a suspect for MacNoughton because he committed suicide soon after Mary Kelly, the last of the Canonical five.

The business about family information is virtually the same as every debate you have in a public house when people maintain things that they cant substaniate and are being questioned.

It is much more likely that Druitt was suffering from depression, and it could even have been the effects of the depression that caused his departure from the school. His family had a history of depression and he knew what the future could hold at the time for such a terrible affliction.

I think that Druitt was a troubled man,quite possibly in a job that he had over exstented himself on and was going through a very difficult time.

But not a killer.

[Roy Corduroy]

Perhaps it was the Rev. William Hough, Montie's brother-in-law, to whom he confessed as the former was nearby in London and worked among the poor.

Yes it is only two and a half miles from 9 Eliot Place, Blackheath (A) to 32 New Cross Road (B) the residence of Rev and Mrs Hough (Georgiana, Montie's sister)

As Chris Phillips pointed out a decade ago

[Jonathan H]

To Hatchett

You have it round the wrong way.

In finding Druitt, already over two years deceased, Macnaghten established--at least to his professional satisfaction--that this was the murderer. The information left behind was that Druitt had killed the so-called 'canonical five' and obviously stopped at Kelly.

Finding Druitt eliminated McKenzie and Coles (and the Pinchin St. torso) and partly eliminated Smith and Tabram too.

That Kelly is the final victim is Druitt-centric, and therfore there is no need for her to be so, if you do not think he was the killer (or Dr. Tumblety).

The is no surviving evidence that Druitt suffered from depression.

The summary of the note at the inquest is decidedly ambiguous (it alludes to suicide). We know from other primary sources, about the posthumous investigation into Druitt, that Macnaghten claims that before the body was found in the Thames the older brother believed that his own brother was the fiend.

Why? again from the same sources, this revelation came from the killer's own lips.

The scraps we have in the primary sources tell us that Montague Druitt suffered from bouts of mania that [arguably] the family described as 'epileptic mania' while Macnaghten called it, more bluntly, 'sexual mania' (the police chief was not a medical man whereas the family had physicians among them).

Sexual mania is the erotic enjoyment of acts of extreme violence.

Macnaghten put it on file, in 1894, that Druitt might not be a doctor but was definitely into ultra-violence.

To Roy

I was not trying to steal Chris Phillips' thunder.

I did not know he had done that, but it is hardly surprising. He is one of the great, dogged reseachers on this subject whose work, furthermore, has informed mine (that is not to suggest he agrees, in any way, shape or form, with my revisionist theorising).

[caz]

The is no surviving evidence that Druitt suffered from depression.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had got sacked from my job/thought I was going like my mother/feared I might hang for murdering a series of prostitutes/waded into the Thames in December to end it all (delete whichever may not apply) I reckon I'd have been suffering from rather severe depression.

Late 1888 wasn't exactly a picnic for Monty, was it?

Love,

Caz
X

[Nick Spring]

Enigma of Montague Druiit

I can't buy into him having depression.

He was functioning pretty well during September on cases and also as late as November 19th involved with the cricket club.

This is the enigma of Montague Druitt. He appeared to be on his way up in the world, yet committed suicide. He was functioning all through the autumn of 1888 leading a busy professional, social and sporting life.

Is it possible that someone suspected him of something more than a possible misdemeanour at the school and was about to go public with this information causing the suicide.

This is the intrigue of Druitt and why he will always be a suspect in this case.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards to all

Nick

[pinkmoon]

The only way we will ever know is if any notes regarding Mr macnaughtons"private information" ever turned up.I don't think there would have been anything really explosive in this information mainly the fact he killed himself at the right time.It would still be nice to know why he was sacked from school I personally think this is where the information came from

[caz]

Er, I should have thought most people who commit suicide must be pretty depressed at that point. It's more a matter of what triggers that depression (mental illness, personal circumstances or both) and how long the individual is depressed before they cannot live through another day.

Assuming it was suicide in Monty's case (and I see absolutely no reason or evidence to suspect foul play here) I think we can safely say he was very severely depressed when he went into that freezing cold water with rocks in his pockets.

That would point away from him being a serial killer in my view, because serial killers are more known for inflicting hellish discomfort on others than on themselves, and tend only to commit suicide when they lose their freedom - their last act of control over their own destiny.

If Ian Brady is too much of a coward to starve himself to death in custody, and has spent years ducking and diving over how many victims there were, and where they were all buried, I can't imagine Jack the Ripper braving the Thames in December, never mind confessing all to a vicar - particularly as there is no evidence that he was suspected or about to be arrested.

Love,

Caz
X

[Wickerman]

Er, I should have thought most people who commit suicide must be pretty depressed at that point. It's more a matter of what triggers that depression (mental illness, personal circumstances or both) and how long the individual is depressed before they cannot live through another day.

Assuming it was suicide in Monty's case (and I see absolutely no reason or evidence to suspect foul play here) I think we can safely say he was very severely depressed when he went into that freezing cold water with rocks in his pockets.

So, would you think that if it was depression, he would have shown symptoms leading up to the suicide? Montague did visit his brother in late Oct. so I wonder if William learned of something due to this visit.

That would point away from him being a serial killer in my view, because serial killers are more known for inflicting hellish discomfort on others than on themselves, and tend only to commit suicide when they lose their freedom - their last act of control over their own destiny.

Hypothetically then, if what you suggest in your first two sentences, is coupled with your third sentence - in short, a serial killer found floating in the Thames - wouldn't it point to foul play?

I'm looking at what you said from a different perspective.

...... I can't imagine Jack the Ripper braving the Thames in December, never mind confessing all to a vicar ....

Me neither, and Sutcliffe was no hero, described as a wimp by one detective, nearer to effeminate that macho.
So, if Sutcliffe was found drowned, with a suicide note at home - would you question it?

[pinkmoon]

jack the stripper

Didn't the man who was suspected of been "jack the stripper" in the mid Sixties commit suicide and leave a note behind?

[Lechmere]

If Montague Druitt let on to his brother in October that he was severely depressed, then one might have thought that he would have acted more quickly when he found out that Montague had been absent from his chambers. As it is he didn’t go up to look for his brother until 30th December.
I would agree that there is no indication that Montague Druitt was suffering from long term depression. It seems that he had sudden bad news that was bad enough to make him suicidal – suggesting he didn’t feel he had a future.
Given that he was sacked under a cloud from his post at a boys school just before, it is a fair assumption that the two events were linked.
Just about the only accusation that could cause him to feel suicidal is an accusation of improper conduct with the boys. This would not be a minor thing.

Wickerman – regarding your Sutcliffe question. I would strongly suspect that Sutcliffe is not the sort of person who would commit suicide. The answer to your hypothetical question is that of Sutcliffe were fund floating down the river with a suicide note then it should be regarded with severe suspicion. Druitt wasn’t a serial killer though.

Pinkmoon – That Jack the Stripper suspect was supposed to have been fearful that he was about to be arrested.