Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Jonathan H]

What you don't factor in -- and I understand why you must resist the obvious -- is that all of that data about there being an allusive suicide note comes from the older brother.

It may have been made up by him.

This is not a modernist twist.

Deceit by William Druitt is strongly implied by other primary sources.

In Sims we can see that William is one of the 'friends' who is trying to find the 'doctor' because be believed that the latter was the Ripper.

We have the 1889 source about the frantic sibling matching Sims in 1902, 1903, 1907 and 1915, and Mac's 1914 memoirs -- essentially a straight-through line.

What is more likely is that Druitt vanished leaving word behind that he had gone abroad. The brother arrived on the 30th because he had inside info. that Montie was the Ripper, from the priest to whom he had confessed. The following day the body surfaced -- he was neither alive nor abroad.

The brother pulled a fast one at the inquest which needed a neat and tidy explanation for this otherwise inexplicable suicide.

It would have been so easy to simply say Montie had become temporarily unbalanced at being dismissed from his part-time vocation.

Instead his self-murder is not linked to this event by the one primary source which mentions it.

but William judged it would not have been possible because his brother was AWOL when dismissed and that this is why he had been dismissed (from the cricket club too for the same reason).

A note was produced which 'alluded' to suicide and the mother's mental incapacity was thrown in as the 'proof'.

Better that embarrassment than the alternative.

An alternative we know lies beneath because of other primary sources.

[Abby Normal]

I debate all comers, unlike others who just restate cliches who hope to wear me and others down by simply repeating the Orhtodox Wisdomn, in which they have so much invested.

Good luck with that.

In my opinion Montie Drutit was dismissed because he was AWOL and the family were not searching for him because he had left word he was suddenly going abroad.

Then the family changed its mind after Christmas.

That might have been simply because they had not heard from him and this was so out of character that William decided to investigate.

More likely the priest to whom Montie had confessed had come forward -- who may have been a family member himself -- and that is when the frantic scramble began.

A man who may have taken his own life would not be described as simply abroad on Dec 21st by his Cricket Club, not wpould he be dismissed.

At that point the Velntimes had no idea foul play might be involved.

Other primary sources -- the comparable 1889 accounts of his death, the MP bits and Macnaghten -- show that Druitt's dismissal is a minor detail as it is not mentioned, understandably, compared to the accusation that he was Jack the Ripper and suffering some kind of psychological implosion.

The alleged note he left behind is not clear-cut at all.

Hence the word 'alluded' not stated.

'Going like mother ...' is ambiguous enough to mean going like mother into an insane asylum.

Why do you think he went AWOL to begin with?

[Paddy]

Why do you think he went AWOL to begin with?

When they used the phrase gone abroad, I dont think the meant went to another country. I believe in those days it meant AWOL as you said. Gone off without reason or permission.
One logical reason could be he ran off with a lover, be it man or woman. Only to then realise he had risked all for nothing?
He had an invite to meet the Prince and didnt turn up to that either.
Maybe he meant he had gone like mother, reckless and manic.
Was she bi-polar by the way?

Pat

[Mr Lucky]

When they used the phrase gone abroad, I dont think the meant went to another country. I believe in those days it meant AWOL as you said. Gone off without reason or permission.

Hi Paddy

I'm always dredging the press for snippets of info, often reading stuff not actually connected to the Whitechapel murders, and thought this might be worth looking at

'Among the latest departures from town is the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has gone abroad until the end of September.' - Hartlepool Mail - 24th August 1888 (and elsewhere)

But recorded here as;-

'The Archbishop of Canterbury has left England until the end of September 1888' - The Lincoln, Rutland and Stamford Mercury - 31st August 1888

Not got a horse in this race, just thought I'd bring it up.

[DVV]

I do not dismiss Druitt as a suspect (he's a billion times more credible Maybrick) but clearly Caz is right pointing out that "serious offence at the school" is all that matters.

[Cogidubnus]

You've done it again!

He had an invite to meet the Prince and didnt turn up to that either.
Maybe he meant he had gone like mother, reckless and manic.
Was she bi-polar by the way?

Hi Pat

Think everyone's missed that almost throwaway line...He had an invite to meet the prince? Que? Care to expand on that?

All the best

Dave

[Jonathan H]

Maybrick is not a 'suspect' at all.

Check out Mike Barrett's confessions which are on this iste

What exactly happened at the school was known to the family and later to Macnaghten, not to us.

They judged that they were not dealing with a man who had killed himself because he was sacked (from the lesser of his two vocations) but with a serial killer; who committed suicide because he was in some kind of tormented state after the latest and most ghastly murder.

The reason Druitt was AWOL is that he was sacked for this very reason by his cricket club on Dec 21st 1888. He had 'gone abroad' and so had to be removed from his administrative position, as he was needed.

Who left word that Druitt had suddenly gone overseas? It could only be Montie himself as it was not true. He had killed himself but weighted down his body so that it would hopefully never be found.

The headmaster's brother sat on the cricket's board. He would never have allowed a man to be sacked if it was thought that he had taken his own life, eg. if the alleged suicide note had already been found at the school prior to this date as has been generally assumed.

Yet it is more likely that the 1889 source is correct.

That the brother did not arrive until Dec 30th and for the first time George Valentine, who had also had to dismiss Montie (as opposed to a face-saving resignation) because he was AWOL, realised that foul play might be involved. The next day Druitt's body surfaced in the Thames exposing his fiction that he had gone abroad.

In some accounts Valentine also gets a suicide note, which is his face-saving moment, eg. rather than having sacked a dead employee.

Could that sceanrio be wrong? Of course. But it is small beer compared to the overall. If Mac could have got Montie off on the basis that he was a tormented homosexual, or just depressed over the loss of the school position (it was also where he lived) then he surely would have.

But he judged that he could not.

If you take all the primary sources together, admittedly very limited, you can see that there is not the slightest indication that Druitt killed himself because he was involved in a sexual scandal at the school, let alone that he was gay -- which at the time could amount to the same thing.

Yet such 'theorising' is necessary to maintain the rigid, Orthodox faith that Macnaghten knew nothing authentic about Druitt, and that the later was more likely to have been a tragic innocent -- who was never even suspected by his own family of being the fiend.

What a slender thread, one which is treated here by many as a 'definitely ascertained fact'. That ertain modern researchers know much more about Drutit than Sir Melville Macnaghten ever did.

Orthodoxy works like this:

Why did Druitt kill himself?

Perhaps he had an affair with Valentine's hot sister, or was caught molesting a child, or had had a manic fit in frotn of his class and, and it was just like his mother, and it terrified him -- terrified him into suicide.

Hmmm ...

How about ... he was Jack the Ripper?

No, no, no, no, no, that is unacceptable even to consider!

Especially on a Jack the Ripper site!

[Paddy]

.He had an invite to meet the prince? Que? Care to expand on that?

Hi Dave
Unfortunately by this time he was dead !

Friday 28th December 1888 Western Gazette Somerset

Prince Albert Victor's visit to Dorset
(In the guest list amongst others)
Miss Druitt and Mr Montegu Druitt, Wimborn.

I will have to check out where it was, think it was some lords house,
Get back to you on that !

Pat

[Simon Wood]

Hi Dave,

Southern Guardian, Saturday, 22nd December 1888—

"On Monday afternoon last (17th) quite a flutter of excitement was caused in Wimborne by the sudden announcement that Prince Albert Victor was coming down by the 5.20 express train from London on a visit to Lord and Lady Wimborne at Canford . . .

"On Thursday night (20th) Canford House was en fete on the occasion of a grand country ball given by Lord and Lady Wimborne in honour of the Prince's visit."

Amongst the list of invitees to the ball are—

Druitt, Mrs. and Miss and Mr. Montagu, Wimborne.

Farquharson, Mr. and Mrs. Henry, Tarrant Gunville, Blandford.

Lord and Lady Wimborne's social secretary was obviously unaware that Montie was Ripperologically detained at the bottom of the Thames.

Regards,

Simon

[Cogidubnus]

Arrivist

Thanks Pat/Simon

Would you believe I never saw that before!

So, bearing in mind the social aspirations/markers of middle-class Victorian England, Monties suicide must've, in itself, been a total bloody disaster for the Druitts...all the more reason for a fudged reason - in that context "going like Mother" might just do...

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Maybrick is not a 'suspect' at all.

Check out Mike Barrett's confessions which are on this iste

What exactly happened at the school was known to the family and later to Macnaghten, not to us.

They judged that they were not dealing with a man who had killed himself because he was sacked (from the lesser of his two vocations) but with a serial killer; who committed suicide because he was in some kind of tormented state after the latest and most ghastly murder.

The reason Druitt was AWOL is that he was sacked for this very reason by his cricket club on Dec 21st 1888. He had 'gone abroad' and so had to be removed from his administrative position, as he was needed.

Who left word that Druitt had suddenly gone overseas? It could only be Montie himself as it was not true. He had killed himself but weighted down his body so that it would hopefully never be found.

The headmaster's brother sat on the cricket's board. He would never have allowed a man to be sacked if it was thought that he had taken his own life, eg. if the alleged suicide note had already been found at the school prior to this date as has been generally assumed.

Yet it is more likely that the 1889 source is correct.

That the brother did not arrive until Dec 30th and for the first time George Valentine, who had also had to dismiss Montie (as opposed to a face-saving resignation) because he was AWOL, realised that foul play might be involved. The next day Druitt's body surfaced in the Thames exposing his fiction that he had gone abroad.

In some accounts Valentine also gets a suicide note, which is his face-saving moment, eg. rather than having sacked a dead employee.

Could that sceanrio be wrong? Of course. But it is small beer compared to the overall. If Mac could have got Montie off on the basis that he was a tormented homosexual, or just depressed over the loss of the school position (it was also where he lived) then he surely would have.

But he judged that he could not.

If you take all the primary sources together, admittedly very limited, you can see that there is not the slightest indication that Druitt killed himself because he was involved in a sexual scandal at the school, let alone that he was gay -- which at the time could amount to the same thing.

Yet such 'theorising' is necessary to maintain the rigid, Orthodox faith that Macnaghten knew nothing authentic about Druitt, and that the later was more likely to have been a tragic innocent -- who was never even suspected by his own family of being the fiend.

What a slender thread, one which is treated here by many as a 'definitely ascertained fact'. That ertain modern researchers know much more about Drutit than Sir Melville Macnaghten ever did.

Orthodoxy works like this:

Why did Druitt kill himself?

Perhaps he had an affair with Valentine's hot sister, or was caught molesting a child, or had had a manic fit in frotn of his class and, and it was just like his mother, and it terrified him -- terrified him into suicide.

Hmmm ...

How about ... he was Jack the Ripper?

No, no, no, no, no, that is unacceptable even to consider!

Especially on a Jack the Ripper site!

Hi
You said he was sacked because he went AWOL. Why did he go AWOL?

[Paddy]

The Hampshire Advertiser (Southampton, England), Saturday, January 12, 1889

In this article it states that the letter was left for Mr Valentine.....

Pat.................

[Jonathan H]

Yes. that's the point I made.

Depending on the primary source only the brother received a note, or it was just Valentine, or it is said that they both did.

I think Druitt had confessed to a priest (who may have himself been a family member). He knew that he was going to be sectioned by his family -- who would be ruined -- and he decided to appear to have fled abroad (which got him sacked from his school and sporting club). In fact Druitt had ended his life with another mortal sin: self-murder.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Jonathan,

Yet it is more likely that the 1889 source is correct.

That the brother did not arrive until Dec 30th and for the first time George Valentine, who had also had to dismiss Montie (as opposed to a face-saving resignation) because he was AWOL, realised that foul play might be involved. The next day Druitt's body surfaced in the Thames exposing his fiction that he had gone abroad.

That the brother did not arrive until Dec 30th

(William H. Druitt). Witness heard from a friend on the 11th of December that deceased had not been heard of at his chambers for more than a week.

Witness then went to London to make inquiries, and at Blackheath he found that deceased had got into serious trouble at the school, and had been dismissed. That was on the 30th of December.

Witness had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him (produced). The Coroner read the letter, which was to this effect: - "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die."

A two-part question for anyone:

(1) Was Blackheath Montague Druitt's residence?

(2) If yes, Why did William Druitt wait nineteen (19) days after hearing his brother Montague was missing to go to his residence to check on his welfare?

Roy

[Jonathan H]

Montague Druitt lived at the Blackheath School as a live-in part-time master.

William Druitt claims, or it claimed about him, that he heard on the 11th that his brother was missing from his chambers.

The 30th maybe the 13th -- the date William arrived from Bournemouth to investigate.

But I think it more likely that it is the 30th,based on the Cricket cub records of the 21st

He id not hear his brother was missing. He heard that he was abroad, or both -- the abroad part coming from a different source.

At some point between going missing and turning up in the Thames, William knew the terrible truth and rushed to the school.