Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Wickerman]

Point taken; however, I'm still really curious to know why Druitt thought he was "becoming like mother."

I wonder.
Lets not forget the phrase "Since Friday....etc." is likely paraphrase, either by the press reporter or by the Coroner, because it is preceded by "to the effect, Since Friday..". So we cannot say with any certainty if those were his actual words.

What I cannot put aside is his older brother's somewhat dismissive(?) attitude towards his brother's disappearance. Without being too conspiratorial, I have to wonder if brother William did not have a more significant role than we are otherwise led to believe.

Consider, William is the senior son, the inheritor of the family fortune. He also has his own legal profession, a team of solicitor's, and several sisters to protect.
Suppose,.... William had actually found another more damming suicide note referring to MJD's involvement in some recent murder's, would he really show this to the police and risk the rash of public scorn that might descend on his good family?
It is a real shame this suicide note has not survived so we could see in who's hand it was written.

So, while we might be led to wonder what was meant by "become like mother", it might be well to consider what other logical reason might an older brother use in a substituted suicide note than to place blame on his own mother's condition which was not a family secret anyway.

Just, food for thought.
Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

If Monty had killed himself during his short stay at William's at the end of October, and had left the note in William's room, maybe there would be some mileage in the idea of a "posthumous" confession. But Monty left the note among his things at Valentine's. If Monty had thought enough of his brother to leave him a note, would he have put incriminating remarks in the note? Anything might have happened to that note. Before William came on the scene to find it, the note could have been opened by mistake or out of nosiness, by one of the school servants or by Valentine. Monty would have been taking a big risk with the family name.

Of course, the note at Valentine's may never have existed at all. Monty may have confided his guilt to William at the end of October, and William may have forged the "since Friday" note to cover Monty's tracks. But I think one report mentions William "having deceased's things searched," which suggests that he wasn't alone in the room when the search was conducted, so I tend to believe there was actually a note, although we will always be unsure just how accurate the reports were.

[Stephen Thomas]

Just for jolly.......

The idea that a classically educated English gentleman, a barrister and schoolmaster who knew Greek and Latin would wander around the East End in the middle of the night carving up prostitutes is silly beyond words.

Just my take on this theory.

[Phil H]

No evidence has yet been put forward to demonstrate that MJD had ANY connection with the East End, any connection with any suspect, or any motive to murder women. he has no imputations of violent behaviour against him.

The ONLY connection we have is Macnagten's claim that he had personal information that convinced him that MJD was a serious - even THE serious suspect. But we have no idea of what thet information was.

His suicide shortly after MJK's death is the mjor plank in any case against MJD, but what iff MJK was not the final victim, or even A Ripper victim? What if Mckenzie was the final murder? The case against Druitt then falls completely.

I was for a while in the 70s a Druittist, but many of the facts claimed then which seemed to strengthen the case against him, have been discredited - the family connections to Minories; the Australian connection etc.

Poor Monty, a sad figure. Only if more information from the family comes to light will I ever consider him seriously as a suspect once again.

phil H

[Wickerman]

One of the symptoms attributed to Ann Druitt was 'paranoid delusions'.
Didn't MJD just wrap up a successful case for his brother by 22 November?
To what degree could MJD have been suffering if he could still handle legal commitments as a barrister?

Surely suicide would normally be a last resort after considerably lengthy struggle with whatever possessed him, wouldn't the family have been aware of something being wrong with MJD?
There seems to be a contradiction here, Druitt closes up a successful legal representation, and a week later commits suicide?

One press report provides another line:
"...he wrote to the effect that "what he intended to do would be the best for all parties,"

Who are these "all parties"? - does that imply his family knew of his insanity, or does the letter refer to someone else?

Also, this may be just poor editing but this almost reads like there were two letters, one addressed to Mr Valentine and another private letter?

The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted.
Dorset Chronicle, 10 Jan. 1889

Then this one is said to have been addressed to himself (William).
Witness had deceased's things searched where he resided, and found a paper addressed to him (produced). — The Coroner read the letter, which was to this effect:-"Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die."
Acton & Chiswick Gazette, 5 Jan. 1889

So was there a second letter, or just faulty reporting?

[Wickerman]

Just for jolly.......

The idea that a classically educated English gentleman, a barrister and schoolmaster who knew Greek and Latin would wander around the East End in the middle of the night carving up prostitutes is silly beyond words.

Just my take on this theory.

Would you be talking about a sane barrister, or an insane barrister?

[Robert]

I think Monty cried "I put it to you" before plunging in the knife.

[Supe]

Jon,

Would you be talking about a sane barrister, or an insane barrister?

I didn't realize there was a choice.

Don.

[Robert]

Don, I think you have to pay more for a sane barrister. It's known as a sanity refresher.

[ChrisGeorge]

No evidence has yet been put forward to demonstrate that MJD had ANY connection with the East End, any connection with any suspect, or any motive to murder women. he has no imputations of violent behaviour against him.

Hello Phil

Not quite true about Druitt having absolutely no connection with the East End. He is on a subscription list for the People's Palace in the East End, as discovered by Chris Scott in 2008 and discussed back then. See this old thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=676

Also there is the question of some distant relatives who lived in the East End. A cousin, Jabez Druitt, lived at 447 Mile End Road in 1881.

I agree with you about lack of any evidence that Montague was violent, nor that there was any indication that he had any specific hatred of prostitutes.

I also go along with Jon(Wickerman)'s line of thought that if he could handle law cases successfully just before his suicide, he would not seem to have been that mentally unbalanced.

Best regards

Chris

[Phil H]

In the 1880s, the well-off and socially conscious often put their names down for subscriptions to good causes, as I understand it. A friend might have asked them to help as a favour.

In my view it is no indication that a particular subscriber had ever been to the area, or was likely to do so, unless to attend some official opening or similar event.

I have relations, on my mother's side, cousins, in Perth, Australia, but I have never been there.

Is it not possible that the connections you cite are simply coincidence, and would work for almost any male of Druitt's class and period?

Phil H

[Wickerman]

Is it not possible that the connections you cite are simply coincidence, and would work for almost any male of Druitt's class and period?

Phil H

Sugden made the same argument, that there's no known connection between Druitt and the East end. He seems to emphasize the point but I asked 'why?', why make such an issue about a point that doesn't matter?

Druitt, being middle class or upper middle class had both the ways and means to visit the East end any time he chose to. Wouldn't a man of his position take a room for the weekend at a local public house?

He may have rented a room for two or three nights at the Britannia for all we know. We do know people in his position often went 'slumming' in the East end. Druitt knew what was available, its not like prostitution was a secret, he knew where to go if, if, this was his intent.

Simply put, no-one needs a connection to the East end as a pre-requisit to be considered a suspect. The pre-requisit is, that a suspect must be able to get there if he chose to, and Druitt could. The East end was thee hive of prostitution and some apparently derived a 'kick' out of cavorting with the 'great unwashed'.
Could Druitt be counted among those who so chose to entertain themselves in that manner?

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Say his mental state had led to outbursts of violent temper, he had struck (or almost struck) a boy, or he had - more likely in my view - begun seriously to neglect his duties (as a result of apathy or lethargy) then surely he might well have thought he was at the beginning of a downward spiral, especially if he recalled seeing similar behaviour in his mother.

Phil H

Say it did. That is a symptom of Huntington's disease, which has an onset of around 40, although 31 is possible, and that is a relatively common disorder, compared to early-onset Alzheimer's, or which temper outbursts are also a symptom. Huntington's is also entirely heritable. If a parent had it, you have a 50% chance of inheriting the gene, and the gene is pretty much destiny. If Druitt's mother had several children, and had Huntington's, it's likely that at least one of then also had the disease.

The heritability of schizophrenia isn't quite so clear. It's possible for one of a pair of identical twins to develop schizophrenia, and not the other, so genes are not destiny in that case. Also, violent temper outbursts are not typical of schizophrenics. They have difficulty communicating, and sometimes have what amount to temper tantrums; they are non-compliant, frequently, but not violent. It's very different. You also tend to see escalation coming, with them, and there's lots of time for redirection. With Huntington's, anger outbursts are sudden, and unpredictable.

I'm not trying to make a case for Huntington's-- just saying that I think there are several more things more likely than schizophrenia.

Also, people with schizophrenia have little insight into the fact that something is wrong with them. People in the early stages of Alzheimer's realize they are becoming forgetful; people experiencing the first symptoms of Huntington's are painfully aware something is wrong, because they experience a disruption of motor functions.

In the case of Huntington's, the motor skills problems are very subtle at first, and a person can hide them from other people for a long time, but if Druitt was, for example, having trouble writing, and spilling ink a lot, not only would he find it frustrating, and a problem with earning his living, but the beginning of the end, if he saw it as a symptom of his mother's disease.

Now, Huntington's had been identified as a syndrome in 1872, but I don't know how widespread the knowledge of it was-- I have no idea whether Druitt could have easily found someone to diagnose it, if that is what he had.

There's little treatment for Huntington's even now, and there's a high rate of suicide among people diagnosed with it.

I do have a point; it's this: pretty much no heritable degenerative disorder is associated with homicide. Most of them involve not just disordered thinking, but degenerative cognitive function, as well as degenerative motor function. Any theory that posits a disease Druitt inherited, as a cause both for "insanity" and an onset of homicidal behavior where he had not previously been a violent person is faulty.

Now, people did not know that (people really still don't, but even less so then), and there was an assumption that anyone crazy or stupid also had the capacity for criminality; people also thought that intelligence made one more moral. We know now that intelligence does not make a person moral, and stupid (or retarded) people are not more likely to break the law (they sometimes may not understand it, but that's not what I'm talking about). We haven't entirely gotten away from the idea that crazy people are more likely to be violent, but there is a lot of research showing that people who develop a disease impairing mental function do not develop a criminality that wasn't there before.

If Druitt was actually going down the road of a degenerative disease, I actually think that it exonerates him-- unless someone can find unsolved disappearances in areas where he used to live that were better planned crimes of which the Ripper crimes could be a degenerative form, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Wickerman]

There's been so much written on Druitt, its possible I forgot something but, weren't all the cases of suicide on the female side of the family?

Looking at MJD's professional career, schooling, on the cricket board, his profession as a successful barrister, etc. We have no hint of him displaying a mental disorder.

The suggestion he may have been 'insane' comes entirely from that suicide letter.

Why he was dismissed is certainly a cloud over his character, but we do not know whether his dismissal was related to his sanity. Perfectly sane people make disastrous errors of judgement quite unrelated to any mental disorder.
His dismissal from Blackheath does not automatically mean the dismissal was related to any activity at the school. The reputation of a private school extends far beyond the school walls. Teachers are held accountable in their private lives too. For example, it would only take discreet police enquiries at the school concerning MJD for him to be brought before the board.

If his family became aware of anything significant after his death, and according to Macnaghten his family may have developed suspicions about him, then whatever he was dismissed for may have triggered that suspicion.
So, was his dismissal related to any nocturnal behaviour?

The dismissal was the only event we know of that blackened his character, so speculating here, if he was dismissed because he had been associated with a prostitute then his family may have investigated further into any nocturnal activities, hence the suspicions?

Regards, Jon S.

[Damaso Marte]

His family apparently didn't know his cricket schedule.