"Sexually Insane" revisited

[aspallek]

But I think Litlechild was being more specific when he used the terms 'Contrary sexual instinct' and 'degenerates'. That may be an indication of what Sims had understood from Macnaghten about Druitt. But of course it's also possible that it was a digression on Littlechild's part.

I think more likely the latter. If Sims used any such term I think he would have merely quoted Macnaghten's "sexually insane." Littlechild's response was his inference, or possibly a digression.

[Chris]

If Sims used any such term I think he would have merely quoted Macnaghten's "sexually insane."

I don't follow that. Evidently Sims wasn't shown the memorandum (or he would have known Druitt's surname). And if Macnaghten had used an ambiguous phrase such as "sexual insanity" in conversation with Sims, surely Sims would have asked him what exactly he meant. And in quizzing Littlechild for more information, it would have been in Sims's interest to state as clearly as possible all the details he had that might enable Littlechild to work out who he was talking about.

[aspallek]

Well, Chris, we are dealing in uncertainties to be sure. Sims either got his information directly form Macnaghten (they were friends) or via Griffiths. Now it seems certain that Griffiths saw some form of the Aberconway version of the Macnaghten memorandum since his wording so closely reflects it. He may have seen a redacted version with the name(s) excised. At any rate, Griffiths (and possibly Sims) probably would have seen Sir Melville's wording "sexually insane." Granted, it's an assumption.

However, we are dealing with what Macnaghten meant by "sexually insane." How Littlechild may have understood it is a somewhat different question. You raise a good point, however.

[Chris]

However, we are dealing with what Macnaghten meant by "sexually insane." How Littlechild may have understood it is a somewhat different question.

But I'm not talking about how Littlechild understood the expression "sexually insane". We don't have any evidence that Littlechild ever heard that expression in relation to a suspect.

What I'm talking about is Littlechild's response to Sims's enquiry. Surely Littlechild's comments about "psychopathia sexualis", "contrary sexual instinct" and so on were made in response to something Sims had said about his "Dr D" suspect, and surely what Sims had said referred to the same thing as Macnaghten's "sexual insanity".

We don't know what it was that Sims said. If he simply said "sexually insane", I agree that Littlechild's comments can reflect only his understanding of that term. But if Sims said something more specific, based on discussions with Macnaghten - as seems far more likely to me - then Littlechild's response might be be telling us something more. Unfortunately even in that event there would be some ambiguity there.

[aspallek]

I'm getting a little "lost afield" here. We don't have any evidence on anything here with regard to who heard or saw other than that Griffiths certainly saw at least a redacted form of Aberconway. All we have are inferences. Whether Sims saw a redacted Aberconway or just heard the words from Macnaghten's lips, I think "sexually insane" is what was communicated to him. That's as far as we can go. We don't know if Macnaghten elaborated to him. I tend to think not.

We are on shaky ground when discussing "Littlechild's response" to "Sims' inquiry." We don't even know there was such an "inquiry." The entire discussion of Jack the Ripper between these two gentlemen seems to have been initiated by Littlechild and not Sims. Sims may have just mentioned a "Dr. D" suspect who was "sexually insane" in passing, or, indeed, in response to Littlechild's comments. Remember that Littlechild had written something previously to Sims about Jack the Ripper. In the letter we have, Littlechild "inflicts" this one more letter about Jack the Ripper upon Sims. This and other comments in the letter implies the discussion was initiated by Littlechild.

[Chris]

Andy

I agree there's a lot we don't know, but quite clearly Littlechild is replying to a letter from Sims, and I can't see how it can be doubted that that letter had contained an enquiry about a "Dr D". And if Sims hadn't mentioned something about a form of sexual insanity, I think it would be very strange for Littlechild to refer to it repeatedly.

I think the one thing that is clear is that Littlechild is trying to draw the correspondence to a close. In the second paragraph he says that Sims need not reply (and makes a distinctly double-edged comment about letters calling for a reply being a nuisance) and in the final paragraph he says rather bluntly "Now pardon me -- it is finished."

And again, I don't see why it should be assumed that all Sims knew was the same phrase we have - "sexual insanity". Why should it be assumed that Macnaghten would communicate exactly that phrase to him? And why should it be assumed that, if he did, Sims would not have enquired further about what he meant - given the very vagueness and ambiguity of the phrase that is problematic for us?

[aspallek]

Ok, let me try again. Yes, Littlechild is replying to a letter from Sims which included a mention of a "Dr D" but it seems clear to me that Littlechild initiated the discussion of Jack the Ripper. We don't know the extent of their conversation.

I'm not really [I]assuming[I] that Sims' only knew the exact phrase "sexually insane." I'm just saying there is really no indication that he knew anything else. Sims may have spoken to Macnaghten directly about the Ripper but this information seems to have come via Griffiths (see Littlechild's comments about having known Griffiths for many years). The wording of Griffiths comments in his book show that he saw Aberconway, perhaps in redacted form with the names removed. Thus it seems to me that what was communicated to Sims was probably nearly exactly the same as we see in Aberconway, again with the names edited out. Druitt's name was probably replaced by "D" and with the comment about the suspect being a doctor he is referred to as "Dr D" in Sims' letter to Littlechild.

Yes, Sims and Macnaghten may have discussed the matter at length and Sir Melville may have elaborated on what he meant by "sexually insane" but that is all speculative.

[Chris]

Andy

Considering how well Sims knew Macnaghten, I think you're making a huge leap by assuming that his information came from Griffiths instead, on the basis of that one comment by Littlechild. Wherever Sims's information came from, it would quite natural for him to mention that essentially the same information was in print in Griffiths's book (particularly if he were trying to shield the person who had given him the "Dr D" information).

And if you're not assuming all Sims knew was the phrase "sexually insane" - just that there's no reason to think he knew more - fair enough. The reason I thought you were assuming that is that you said "Whether Sims saw a redacted Aberconway or just heard the words from Macnaghten's lips, I think "sexually insane" is what was communicated to him".

Essentially what I'm arguing is that it would be at least as speculative to assume that was all he knew, as to assume it wasn't - considering how interested he was in the case and how well he knew the author of the memorandum.

[aspallek]

OK, fair enough Chris.

Since there is so much we don't know about what Sims was told I will simply return to my original point of examining what contemporary sources meant by "sexually insane" and "sexual insanity" since that is the term we know was used by Macnaghten. To me, based on the small survey of literature I have done, the emphasis seems to be on excessive sexual appetite.

[Archaic]

1893 Book: 'Medical Jurisprudence of Insanity'

Hi; here's a book I think you will find useful for your discussion. It was written from a Medico-Legal perspective in 1893, very close in time to the Ripper crimes, and I think it may be more reflective of c.1888 Law Enforcement attitudes than medical books written 20 years later when so much in Medicine & Psychology had changed.

>''A Treatise On the Medical Jurisprudence of Insanity,
by Edward Cox Mann, 1893.

Available in full & for download at

http://books.google.com/books?id=0LTUKdOo8VsC&pg=PA20&dq=sexual+insanity&ei=PN1DSp3dLoyokATZ-YzjDg

Chapter II, page 20:
>'Morbid Sexual Perversions As Related To Insanity'
This entire chapter is a discussion of the term "Sexual Insanity', and it is explicitly discussing Homosexuality. On page 26 the author goes so far as to claim that one "sexually insane/homosexual" girl at a boarding school managed to evoke a weird form of mass "hysterical" pseudo-homosexuality in her classmates.
It's a fascinating book; a combination of good sense & total weirdness- pg 19 claims its a well-established fact that most Pyromaniacs are young girls with menstrual difficulties!

Sorry, but I'm not very skilled with attachments yet, so one of you might want to handle that part.
Best regards, Archaic

[aspallek]

Thank you for that. Yes, as I said it can refer to homosexuality. Not to nitpick but the phrase "sexually insane" or "sexual insanity" does not appear in this book. It is really this type of exact phrase I was looking for. To search for the phrase "sexually insane" on Google Books you must put quotation marks around the words.

But thank you. Your point is well taken though I still don't think that's what Sir Melville meant.

[Johnr]

" Sexual Insanity " defined in the LVP my medicos,and policemen.

A lively and useful thread folks, thanks for starting it Andy,
Previous threads canvassing the same subject became bogged down from being led enthusiasticly but - in my opinion - mistakenly, up the " serious trouble = homosexuality ' cul-de-sac. Insufficient proof.
Here are a few observations:
[1] Sir Robert Anderson in several of his writings seems to use the term " sexual insanity" and its variants.The context appears to be that of
citizen's inability to control their passions. Particularly in front of
the horses. A terrible crime given the Victorian obsession with 'respectability'.
[2] Moralist sermonisers like Sir Robert, appear to use the term " sexual insanity" as an umbrella term beneath which was a sub-set of variations, such as " homosexuality";" excessive masturbation"; and "uncontrolled appetite".
[3] Is it possible Littlechild, guessing that Griffith had obtained his JTR details from Macnaghten, and engaging previously in an exchange of letters with Macnaghten, sought to tell Macnaghten all he knew about suspects with 'sexual maniac' characteristics?
Surely, Littlechild would have been thinking of Tumblety if there was talk of an unnamed " Dr--" and links with that suspect to " sexual insanity" ?
JOHN RUFFELS.

[caz]

Hi All,

Coming late to the party, I agree with Chris that the tone of Littlechild's letter to Sims appears designed to put an end to the correspondence. There are several hints that he'd rather not hear another word about the man's 'great interest' in all matters criminal and abnormal. His latest letter will soon be joining all the others gathering dust, not to be read again unless Littlechild finds the will in old age to revive such memories.

The clipped politeness is not exactly flattering and it gets worse. The reference to 'inflicting' only one more letter on Sims regarding the ripper and trying to be 'brief' about it sounds like a rather broad hint that Sims may have inflicted one too many letters on Littlechild and that they had been anything but brief.

The last little dig appears to be his afterthought, where he informs Sims that he knew Major Griffiths for years and reckons he got his ripper info from Anderson, about whom it was said that he only 'thought' he knew.

This comes across as a none too subtle hint that Sims was likely to be misinformed if he had been getting his ideas from Griffiths and had come up with a suspect Littlechild had never even heard of. It's apparent from the 'sounds much like D' observation that Littlechild suspects a reference to "Dr T" has been misheard as "Dr D" somewhere along the line, resulting in his 'very likely' suspect being confused with this other doctor. He evidently thinks Sims has got his wires crossed.

But it's anyone's guess what Sims had been repeating about Dr D and his alleged 'sexual insanity'. We don't know if Littlechild is emphasising the similarities between the two men, based on what Sims had written, to show how easily one could have become confused with the other, beyond the similar sounding initial and supposed doctor status. He may be pointing out differences as well. He does focus on Tumblety's homosexuality and stresses the value of having certain facts 'on record', such as his feelings toward women being 'bitter in the extreme'. Was this because Sims had been making similar claims for this Dr D, only with less to back them up? Or did his description of Druitt's sexuality not fit with Littlechild's ideas at all?

It would be quite dismissive of Littlechild to say he'd never heard of Sims's Dr D, then not even bother to ask anything about him but launch instead into detail about what made his Dr T so special. So I imagine Sims had volunteered all Littlechild wanted or needed to hear about Druitt (which evidently didn't include the man's name), prompting him to come back with enough on Tumblety to make what he evidently believed was a favourable comparison. I'm not sure how he could have begun to do that if Sims had given him no idea of how Dr D's sexual insanity (a pretty crucial factor in his own ripper reasoning) might compare with Dr T's, in nature or intensity.

Love,

Caz
X

[aspallek]

Hi Caz,

As you indicate it's awfully difficult to determine the circumstances of this correspondence. I still believe that it is Littlechild who is a bit in awe of the celebrity Sims.

Yes, I agree it's likely that Sims mentioned something about "Dr D's" sexual status. Very likely Sims suggested that the unnamed Druitt was a sadist since Littlechild counters with the caveat that Tumblety was not. It seems to me that Littlechild is not quite sure whether Sims is referring to Tumblety or not. All of this raises the question as to whether Macnaghten ever referred privately to Druitt as being a sadist, or for that matter whether he in fact might have been. This we shall never know.

I do think it quite plausible that the identities of Druitt and Tumblety were muddled even perhaps in the minds of the police. This just might explain Douglas Browne's comment that Macnaghten favored a suspect who was involved in a plot to assassinate Balfour. While we don't know whether Tumblety was ever involved in such a plot the notion certainly fits him better than it does Druitt.

[Johnr]

I agree with Caz and Andy,
We do not know for sure just what exchanges about the mysterious medical JTR passed between Littlechild and Sims.
However, Caz's assumtion or presumption, that Sims had suggested some form of " woman hating" by his JTR candidate does ring true.
After all somewhere in Sims' published writings on JTR he asserts that the murderer had a dislike of women. (Not sure if he said women of the category JTR seemed to be systematically slaying or not). Cannot remember at this remove.
I believe the term " sexual insanity " might have been adopted by Anderson, and thence Macnaghten (after all, Anderson used it in his books).
I wonder if Macnaghten then equated "sexual insanity" by JTR with "women hating"? JOHN RUFFELS.