Deeming - A closer look

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I have always considered that the Ripper was someone outside of the generic pack of suspects.

However, I thought I'd take my very first look; yes my very first look, at Frederick Deeming.


Outside of being aware that he was a convicted serial killer; having killed more than 2 people on separate occasions, I was completely unaware of how and why he has been considered as a Ripper suspect.


Having looked at some of the threads on this site, I have tried to build up a picture of Deeming as a whole in relation to the Ripper case.

It would appear that the focus on Deeming has diminished considerably over time, possibly due to the idea that Deeming was actually in South Africa at the time of the murders.

However, I have yet to see any data that directly and definitely rules him out as being the Ripper.

Based on my initial endeavours to find the facts on Deeming, it seems that the jury is still out on whether he COULD have been the Ripper.

Unless I am missing something, it appears that Deeming is still worth consideration as a Ripper suspect.

One thing that does seem clear is that Deeming had several attributes that could be significant in relation to the Ripper case...


1 - A bigamist and conman who went by many different names and aliases... some of the key ones...

Baron Swanston
Harry Lawson
Harry Dawson
Albert Oliver Williams (Army Officer)
Mr Drewn
Mr George
Francis Duncan

etc...etc...


2 - Changed and adapted his physical appearance (one time he allegedly shaved off his facial hair quickly with a piece of broken glass just moments before an identity parade. Cutting off his moustache made him look completely different)

3 - Aggressive nature, prone to episodes of violence and rage.

4 - An eccentric extravagant narcissistic sociopath.

5 - Used a knife to cut his wives (Marie and Emily respectively) throats...and his 4 children.

6 - Hanged on 23rd May 1892...no KNOWN Ripper murders having occurred after this date.

7- Was aged 35 at the time of the Ripper murders.

8 - Overly attentive to women; often using inappropriate behaviour.

9 - Allegedly told Dr Shields that he had often gone out to search for a prostitute who had given him syphilis, with the intention of killing her...and then went on to suggest to have gotten his "own back" on "more than one" prostitute.

10 - Contracted Syphilis from a prostitute.

11 - known as "Mad Fred" as a child as a result of his odd behaviour

12 - He was obsessed with the concept of sin and punishment, allegedly carrying a Bible with him on all his travels.

13 - Had an abusive father who committed suicide by cutting his throat

14 - Had an overpowering religiously obsessive mother. The relationship with his mother was particularly odd and atypical.

15 - Had a break down after his mother died in the 1870's

16 - Spoke of his mother coming to visit him at 2am every morning, despite her having died. He claimed his mother compelled him to kill.

17 - Tried to claim insanity despite there being clear evidence of premeditated murder and pre-planning the disposal of his wife and children.

18 - Buried his family under the floor in England, and then Buried his 2nd wife Emily in a similar manner in Australia.

19 - Very charming, good with words, handsome, fair hair, blue piercing eyes, ginger moustache.

20 - March 1888 - October 1889 his precise location has still not been verified conclusively.

21 - Often played the part of an educated aristocrat; but in reality he was an uneducated plumber and gas fitters

22 - Was allegedly identified by a woman who claimed to have seen him in the East End on the night Eddowes was murdered.

23- Alleged to have confessed to the " last 2" Whitechapel murders; one of which was Alice Mckenzie.
Deeming later denied he confessed to the last 2 Ripper murders.

24 - Had a death mark made that was sent to New Scotland Yard and at the time was displayed in the "Black Museum" situated in the basement and coincidentally just yards from where the Whitehall torso was previously discovered.

25 - Must have been considered a Ripper suspect at the time because of the Death Mask being sent and displayed by the police and labelled as the face of the Ripper.



There are many more points of course...but there are a couple of others that I think are perhaps important to consider in more depth...


Now we know that Deeming did NOT murder Francis Coles, because her was in prison at the time.

This fact seems to have been one of the reasons WHY deeming has been somewhat dismissed and lost to the wind because having allegedly confessed to have committed the "last 2" Ripper murders it is obvious that based on Mckenzie being the first and Coles being the 2nd, his words aren't worth anything when the latter was proven to have not been at the hands of Deeming due to his incarceration.


However, me being me, I considered that Deeming wasn't referring to Coles at all...but perhaps referring to the Pinchin Street Torso.


I say this because there's an article that mentions yet more aliases for Deeming; namely a MR LEVY...and a MR LEARY.

So...here's my hypothesis...


Deeming murders Mckenzie but commits no abdominal mutilations...because the last actual Ripper killing was MJK...and perhaps committed by an actual abdominal mutialtor in BURY.

Deeming is trying to copy cat the Ripper.

He then kills again, by copy cat killing the Torso killer in dispatching the Pinchin Street torso; his 2nd and final East End kill.

The reason why he is the man who commits the Pinchin Street torso is that it may have been DEEMING who reported the Pinchin Street torso BEFORE the torso was actually dumped.
Deeming went to the press agency as Arnold...aka MR LEARY.

Mr Leary was an alias of Deeming, and I believe it was Deeming who poses as Arnold.


OR...

Deeming WAS the Ripper and like ALL serial killer's; they only admit to killing SOME and not all of their victims.

He kills MJK who turns out to be the woman he wanted to punish; her sharing the name Marie with his wife that he later murders.

Hutchinson's description of the man he saw with MJK fits that of Deeming.


Was Deeming Jack the Ripper?

Or was he a copy cat Ripper?

Or none of the above?




Lots to ponder


RD

p.s. and at least its not another Lechmere thread.

[The Rookie Detective]

Another interesting snippet...



Is there any basis of truth in this alleged statement?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Here is a reference to Leary or Levey...



Levey sounding like Levy; perhaps imitating a Jew.

Leary being the name of a man linked with the Pinchin Street torso

Deeming was after all seemingly a man of many faces and disguises.

Does this article form a potential link between Deeming and the murders?


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just started reading The Devil’s Work: Australia’s Jack the Ripper and the Serial Murders that Rocked the World by Garry Linnell. I don’t know if anyone else on here has read this one. I can’t think why I hadn’t read it so I got the Kindle version.

[The Rookie Detective]

I’ve just started reading The Devil’s Work: Australia’s Jack the Ripper and the Serial Murders that Rocked the World by Garry Linnell. I don’t know if anyone else on here has read this one. I can’t think why I hadn’t read it so I got the Kindle version.

Ah yes, I haven't read it, but know of it.


I find it particularly interesting that Deeming used different accents; American, Australian, Lancashire etc...to con and cheat his way through his life.
He was a bigamist and confidence trickster and a man of many faces.

It would appear that individuals like Deeming, Kelly and Chapman are still considered as very viable suspects for being the Ripper even after all this time.


The single biggest factor that works against Deeming; is that there is no evidence or suggestion that he had any interest in post mortem mutilation.

That fact alone is a massive dagger in the heart for anyone considering Deeming as the Ripper.

It is the one thing that Bury has over Deeming; Bury was a proven post mortem mutilator of his own wife.

Deeming used a blunt object (battle axe head/hilt)
A knife to cut his victim's throats
Buried his victims


The latter point also works against Deeming; the Ripper presented his work openly as part of his ritual; whereas Deeming concealed his victims.

Bury also concealed his wife.


Before this turns into a Bury VS Deeming thread; both IMO have a lot in favour of being the Ripper; but neither chose to DISPLAY their victims AND both men only killed WOMEN KNOWN TO THEM.


In the Ripper we have a post mortem mutilator who displays his work deliberately to shock the public and put fear into them.
The Ripper kills women he doesn't necessarily know and doesn't kill any women related to him (as far as we know)

IMO that is the key difference between the Ripper and any known suspect that we know of.

Deeming for me though absolutely now makes my top 8 and pushes out Chapman to number 9.

Bachert, Kelly, Bury and Le Grand also included in my top 8 in no particular order.


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah yes, I haven't read it, but know of it.


I find it particularly interesting that Deeming used different accents; American, Australian, Lancashire etc...to con and cheat his way through his life.
He was a bigamist and confidence trickster and a man of many faces.

It would appear that individuals like Deeming, Kelly and Chapman are still considered as very viable suspects for being the Ripper even after all this time.


The single biggest factor that works against Deeming; is that there is no evidence or suggestion that he had any interest in post mortem mutilation.

That fact alone is a massive dagger in the heart for anyone considering Deeming as the Ripper.

It is the one thing that Bury has over Deeming; Bury was a proven post mortem mutilator of his own wife.

Deeming used a blunt object (battle axe head/hilt)
A knife to cut his victim's throats
Buried his victims


The latter point also works against Deeming; the Ripper presented his work openly as part of his ritual; whereas Deeming concealed his victims.

Bury also concealed his wife.


Before this turns into a Bury VS Deeming thread; both IMO have a lot in favour of being the Ripper; but neither chose to DISPLAY their victims AND both men only killed WOMEN KNOWN TO THEM.


In the Ripper we have a post mortem mutilator who displays his work deliberately to shock the public and put fear into them.
The Ripper kills women he doesn't necessarily know and doesn't kill any women related to him (as far as we know)

IMO that is the key difference between the Ripper and any known suspect that we know of.

Deeming for me though absolutely now makes my top 8 and pushes out Chapman to number 9.

Bachert, Kelly, Bury and Le Grand also included in my top 8 in no particular order.


RD

I haven’t got too much into it yet RD due to interruptions but wasn’t there a question against whether he was actually in the UK at the time of the murders? From past posts I seem to recall George knowing a fair bit about Deeming but I don’t know if he’s read this book?

[Lewis C]

It was thought at one time that Deeming was either in jail or in South Africa at the time of the Ripper murders, but I think it has since been shown that there's no evidence that either of those is the case. So the interest in Deeming declined for awhile, but has increased in recent years.

One other point about Deeming is that he strangled some of his victims. So he strangled and cut throats, same as the Ripper. No abdominal mutilations, but Bury is the only Ripper suspect who did that. The known murderers who are Ripper suspects all killed people that they knew, all killed wives, but doing so would have required they do some things differently from the Ripper, such as concealing what they did.

I don't think that Deeming's description matches the man that Hutchinson saw. Basically, he doesn't look Jewish. But I'm very doubtful about Hutch's credibility, so that doesn't affect my view of Deeming as a suspect. I think he's one of the 9 best Ripper suspects.

[The Rookie Detective]

It was thought at one time that Deeming was either in jail or in South Africa at the time of the Ripper murders, but I think it has since been shown that there's no evidence that either of those is the case. So the interest in Deeming declined for awhile, but has increased in recent years.

One other point about Deeming is that he strangled some of his victims. So he strangled and cut throats, same as the Ripper. No abdominal mutilations, but Bury is the only Ripper suspect who did that. The known murderers who are Ripper suspects all killed people that they knew, all killed wives, but doing so would have required they do some things differently from the Ripper, such as concealing what they did.

I don't think that Deeming's description matches the man that Hutchinson saw. Basically, he doesn't look Jewish. But I'm very doubtful about Hutch's credibility, so that doesn't affect my view of Deeming as a suspect. I think he's one of the 9 best Ripper suspects.

I had always believed that Deeming had been conclusively ruled out due to him having been in South Africa at the time of the killings; but it would appear that there is no definitive proof either way.

We know he was in Hull in England in 1889 and so that indicates that he travelled often and under different names and guises.

Another point that goes against him is that he wasn't a local to Whitechapel; unlike someone like Bachert who lived within the Ripper kill zone throughout the entirety of the murders.

We therefore have no means to connect Deeming to Whitechapel; and that is a very long nail in the coffin and goes against him being the Ripper.

However, there were witnesses who claimed he WAS in Whitechapel; including the woman who stated she saw him the night Eddowes was murdered, and the man on the bus who claimed Deeming was a passenger who produced a spring back clasp knife and mentioned the Ripper.

These could be just stories and there's no way to prove they're genuine.

Now of course; if there's a way of proving he was in Whitechapel through the use of one of his many many names; then that may swing the balance to Deeming being a key suspect in the case.

It is important to highlight that it was alleged that Deeming claimed he was responsible for the "last 2 murders" ergo, Mckenzie and one other.
It was also alleged that when asked about the other murders; he claimed to know nothing about them.

He therefore doesn't say he was responsible for the Canonical 5, but only Mckenzie and one other.

It has always been assumed that he was referring to Coles, but we know for certain that Deeming was NOT Coles killer because he was in prison at the time she was murdered.

It seems that once it was established that he couldn't have been Coles killer; that he was just lying about the entire thing and had no link to the murder of McKenzie either.

However, my point is that he may have been referring to the Pinchin Street torso and NOT Coles.


It is alleged that Deeming went by the name of Leary at one stage.
I find that fact that the name Leary can be connected to the man who appeared to predict the murder before it happened is a striking coincidence.

What if the man who told the press that about the Pinchin Street torso BEFORE any body was dumped, was actually Deeming himself?

Did Deeming have any connections to the press?

Does the description of Deeming fit into the description of the man who gave his name as Arnold and is later linked to the name Leary?


Deeming was fair, blur eyes, handsome, with a ginger (ish) colour moustache, and aged in his mid to late 30's at the time.


How does that tally with the man Leary?


Whats interesting is that Deeming also seems to have used the name Levy.

Levy is Jewish of course.


But Deeming wasn't Jewish and didn't look Jewish.


Does that suggest that Deeming actively changed the colour of his facial hair depending on the alias he was going by at the time? I.e. did he alter his appearance to look more Jewish when he was alleged to have gone by the name Levy?


Fascinating character indeed



RD

[jerryd]

I find that fact that the name Leary can be connected to the man who appeared to predict the murder before it happened is a striking coincidence.

What if the man who told the press that about the Pinchin Street torso BEFORE any body was dumped, was actually Deeming himself?

Did Deeming have any connections to the press?

Does the description of Deeming fit into the description of the man who gave his name as Arnold and is later linked to the name Leary?

RD

Hi RD.

The man who entered the "Herald" offices and told the press about the body was John Arnold. Arnold is not the name he gave them initially, but after the investigation that man was in fact the newsvendor, John Arnold. He turned himself into the police and was questioned. He admitted to being the man at the "Herald" offices.

Claude Mellor, a journalist for the Star Newspaper, had his suspicions raised when he heard the name Cleary and Backchurch Lane. He told the police he knew a man named Cleary that lived at #2, Savoy Buildings, age 35, bald and spoke as if he had no roof to his mouth was a man of interest. He was an ex-compositor for the Globe. A few years ago on the forums I did some research into a man named Matthew Cleary that lived at the right time at #3, Savoy Buildings and was a compositor. The Globe offices were directly across the street from his address so without being 100% certain, I am fairly certain this is Mellor's man. Living at #2, Savory Buildings, incidentally, was a man named C.H Fox. I would say with high confidence this was Charles H. Fox, the famous wigmaker and master of disguise. The reason I am so confident is across from Savoy Buildings was Terry's Theatre. Fox designed outfits for actors and actresses.

Claude Mellor found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley Estate. That is a story in and of itself.

And last, for coincidences related to this, William Wallace Brodie (made a confession that he killled Alice McKenzie) lived twice at the same address as John Arnold. Once when he was released from prison in August 1888 and again when he returned from South Africa in July 1889 just before Alice's murder. Both men lived at #2 Harvey's Buildings, Strand.

[GBinOz]

1.) I had always believed that Deeming had been conclusively ruled out due to him having been in South Africa at the time of the killings; but it would appear that there is no definitive proof either way.

2.) However, there were witnesses who claimed he WAS in Whitechapel; including the woman who stated she saw him the night Eddowes was murdered, and the man on the bus who claimed Deeming was a passenger who produced a spring back clasp knife and mentioned the Ripper.

These could be just stories and there's no way to prove they're genuine.


3.) It is important to highlight that it was alleged that Deeming claimed he was responsible for the "last 2 murders" ergo, Mckenzie and one other.
It was also alleged that when asked about the other murders; he claimed to know nothing about them.

He therefore doesn't say he was responsible for the Canonical 5, but only Mckenzie and one other.

It has always been assumed that he was referring to Coles, but we know for certain that Deeming was NOT Coles killer because he was in prison at the time she was murdered.

It seems that once it was established that he couldn't have been Coles killer; that he was just lying about the entire thing and had no link to the murder of McKenzie either.

However, my point is that he may have been referring to the Pinchin Street torso and NOT Coles.

Hi RD,

1.) I believe the theory that he was in South Africa originated at the time of his arrest in Australia. Two detectives came from South Africa as part of an investigation into a murder in South Africa. When they saw Deeming in jail they declared that he was not the man for whom they were looking, but this part was lost in the story.

2.) The woman who stated she saw him the night Eddowes was murdered saw a published photo of Deeming after his arrest, but she said his name was Lawson. It would be of value to know if this known alias used by Deeming had been mentioned in the press at, or before, that time.

IF Deeming was the ripper, then he would have unique knowledge of the identities of his victims, and would not include those who were not his victims in his statement. So if he were the ripper, and MJK was his last victim, he would be counting back from her in the knowledge that he, as the ripper, had nothing to do with any victim after MJK.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

The man who entered the "Herald" offices and told the press about the body was John Arnold. Arnold is not the name he gave them initially, but after the investigation that man was in fact the newsvendor, John Arnold. He turned himself into the police and was questioned. He admitted to being the man at the "Herald" offices.

Claude Mellor, a journalist for the Star Newspaper, had his suspicions raised when he heard the name Cleary and Backchurch Lane. He told the police he knew a man named Cleary that lived at #2, Savoy Buildings, age 35, bald and spoke as if he had no roof to his mouth was a man of interest. He was an ex-compositor for the Globe. A few years ago on the forums I did some research into a man named Matthew Cleary that lived at the right time at #3, Savoy Buildings and was a compositor. The Globe offices were directly across the street from his address so without being 100% certain, I am fairly certain this is Mellor's man. Living at #2, Savory Buildings, incidentally, was a man named C.H Fox. I would say with high confidence this was Charles H. Fox, the famous wigmaker and master of disguise. The reason I am so confident is across from Savoy Buildings was Terry's Theatre. Fox designed outfits for actors and actresses.

Claude Mellor found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley Estate. That is a story in and of itself.

And last, for coincidences related to this, William Wallace Brodie (made a confession that he killled Alice McKenzie) lived twice at the same address as John Arnold. Once when he was released from prison in August 1888 and again when he returned from South Africa in July 1889 just before Alice's murder. Both men lived at #2 Harvey's Buildings, Strand.

There are some very odd coincidences there indeed.


Could a group of men associated with the Savoy Building and Globe offices have been part of a group of killers?

Did they form part of a gentleman's club that included individuals with a lust for cutting, mutilation, and cannibalism?

A kind of underground fight club that dealt with the macabre and sexual deviance instead of fighting.

A club that included Policemen, Surgeons, Actors and Reporters.

It's also interesting for me that as well as an Engraver; Albert Bachert also once described himself as "a compositor and reporter"


There has always been a theme of Reporters and Theatrics running through the Ripper murders and I have always wondered whether the Ripper AND Torso killings were the work of multiple individuals who acted as part of some secret cult.


Regarding Deeming; it's also interesting that he posed as an Engineer, a Doctor, an army officer, a farmer etc...

The only thing he was trained in was as a plumber and gas fitter, and yet he plays a multitude of roles and persona over time.

He is constantly in character and for me that fits my idea of the kind of man who was the Ripper.



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

1.) I believe the theory that he was in South Africa originated at the time of his arrest in Australia. Two detectives came from South Africa as part of an investigation into a murder in South Africa. When they saw Deeming in jail they declared that he was not the man for whom they were looking, but this part was lost in the story.

2.) The woman who stated she saw him the night Eddowes was murdered saw a published photo of Deeming after his arrest, but she said his name was Lawson. It would be of value to know if this known alias used by Deeming had been mentioned in the press at, or before, that time.

IF Deeming was the ripper, then he would have unique knowledge of the identities of his victims, and would not include those who were not his victims in his statement. So if he were the ripper, and MJK was his last victim, he would be counting back from her in the knowledge that he, as the ripper, had nothing to do with any victim after MJK.

Cheers, George

Some excellent points


In particular your 2nd point.

Deeming was known to go by the name of both Lawson and Dawson, and as you say; it would be interesting to know the correct chronology of when the name Lawson was first referenced in the press.

It would go a long way to either enhancing her claim as being truthful and accurate; or dismissing it as unreliable if the name had been plastered all over the press before she said anything.


Regarding Deeming's alleged claims that he was responsible for the last 2 murders, the inference was on Alice Mckenzie being one of those 2 because at the time Alice Mckenzie was considered a Ripper victim regardless of any modern day view that she wasn't.

But you're correct in that IF Mckenzie wasn't a Ripper victim and the press assumed that Deeming was talking about Mckenzie and Coles; then Deeming may have been referring to MJK.

However Deeming was asked about "the other murders' (presumably regarding the autumn of 1888) he denied having any knowledge of them.


It makes me wonder why Deeming wouldn't just say he was the Ripper and claim to have been the infamous Whitechapel slayer.

But he doesn't elude to that at all and just refers to "the last 2"

Chronologically speaking that should mean Coles and Pinchin Street BUT crucially it is Alice McKenzie who is highlighted as one of the last 2.

So does that mean McKenzie and Pinchin, Mckenzie and Coles, or McKenzie and MJK?

Or MJK and Eddowes?


Another interesting titbit regarding Deeming; he often carried Sovereign coins and had a necklace (with diamonds) that he carried around with him to seduce women.

The idea of Deeming dressed as a Doctor, Soldier, Engineer or aristocrat and going around showing women his necklace, is to me reminiscent of the Ripper.



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Frederick Deeming was also a Freemason.


He was initiated into the "Lodge of Tranquility" in Sydney NSW)

Initiated on 11th November 1886
Passed on 9th December 1886
Raised in January 1887

That confirms he was in Sidney at least between November 1886 to January 1887.


Interesting that despite so many different names and aliases, he used his real birth name when he joined the Freemasons.

He also stated he was a Plumber; which is accurate.

Is it significant that he told so much truth when he became a Freemason?

For a man who was a compulsive liar, cheat and fraud; it is perhaps rather telling that he told the truth when joining the Lodge of Tranquility in Sydney; a place exclusively for men at the time.



RD

[Tel]

I've never bought Deeming as JTR. His secreting of his known victims is diametricly opposed to Jack's methods.

[The Rookie Detective]

I've never bought Deeming as JTR. His secreting of his known victims is diametricly opposed to Jack's methods.

That is an incredibly valid point.

The same applies to Bury who also secreted his wife...at least for a while... until he confessed.


The Ripper was perhaps a more spontaneous hunter, who took his opportunities and whose primary focus was to mutilate and then pose his victims in such a manner as to cause shock value and torment the person who discovered the body.


Bury and Deeming killed women they knew who were close to them; whereas the Ripper seems to have been an unknown entity to the women he killed.

Unless of course he WAS known to at least some of the women he killed; in particular MJK whose identity remains illusive.

Was the Ripper the individual that Kelly spoke of as being a family member in the theatre?

Was he related to her; hence a seemingly more personal touch when dispatching Kelly?

Considering her brother Johnto (?) never came forward; it seems as though he never existed or he may have been the Ripper himself and she let him in because he was family.
The man that Hutchinson described and who allegedly laughed along with MJK when she approached him. A joke between family perhaps?


just a random thought


RD