Deeming - A closer look

[Lewis C]

It was thought at one time that Deeming was either in jail or in South Africa at the time of the Ripper murders, but I think it has since been shown that there's no evidence that either of those is the case. So the interest in Deeming declined for awhile, but has increased in recent years.

One other point about Deeming is that he strangled some of his victims. So he strangled and cut throats, same as the Ripper. No abdominal mutilations, but Bury is the only Ripper suspect who did that. The known murderers who are Ripper suspects all killed people that they knew, all killed wives, but doing so would have required they do some things differently from the Ripper, such as concealing what they did.

I don't think that Deeming's description matches the man that Hutchinson saw. Basically, he doesn't look Jewish. But I'm very doubtful about Hutch's credibility, so that doesn't affect my view of Deeming as a suspect. I think he's one of the 9 best Ripper suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah yes, I haven't read it, but know of it.


I find it particularly interesting that Deeming used different accents; American, Australian, Lancashire etc...to con and cheat his way through his life.
He was a bigamist and confidence trickster and a man of many faces.

It would appear that individuals like Deeming, Kelly and Chapman are still considered as very viable suspects for being the Ripper even after all this time.


The single biggest factor that works against Deeming; is that there is no evidence or suggestion that he had any interest in post mortem mutilation.

That fact alone is a massive dagger in the heart for anyone considering Deeming as the Ripper.

It is the one thing that Bury has over Deeming; Bury was a proven post mortem mutilator of his own wife.

Deeming used a blunt object (battle axe head/hilt)
A knife to cut his victim's throats
Buried his victims


The latter point also works against Deeming; the Ripper presented his work openly as part of his ritual; whereas Deeming concealed his victims.

Bury also concealed his wife.


Before this turns into a Bury VS Deeming thread; both IMO have a lot in favour of being the Ripper; but neither chose to DISPLAY their victims AND both men only killed WOMEN KNOWN TO THEM.


In the Ripper we have a post mortem mutilator who displays his work deliberately to shock the public and put fear into them.
The Ripper kills women he doesn't necessarily know and doesn't kill any women related to him (as far as we know)

IMO that is the key difference between the Ripper and any known suspect that we know of.

Deeming for me though absolutely now makes my top 8 and pushes out Chapman to number 9.

Bachert, Kelly, Bury and Le Grand also included in my top 8 in no particular order.


RD

I haven’t got too much into it yet RD due to interruptions but wasn’t there a question against whether he was actually in the UK at the time of the murders? From past posts I seem to recall George knowing a fair bit about Deeming but I don’t know if he’s read this book?

[The Rookie Detective]

I’ve just started reading The Devil’s Work: Australia’s Jack the Ripper and the Serial Murders that Rocked the World by Garry Linnell. I don’t know if anyone else on here has read this one. I can’t think why I hadn’t read it so I got the Kindle version.

Ah yes, I haven't read it, but know of it.


I find it particularly interesting that Deeming used different accents; American, Australian, Lancashire etc...to con and cheat his way through his life.
He was a bigamist and confidence trickster and a man of many faces.

It would appear that individuals like Deeming, Kelly and Chapman are still considered as very viable suspects for being the Ripper even after all this time.


The single biggest factor that works against Deeming; is that there is no evidence or suggestion that he had any interest in post mortem mutilation.

That fact alone is a massive dagger in the heart for anyone considering Deeming as the Ripper.

It is the one thing that Bury has over Deeming; Bury was a proven post mortem mutilator of his own wife.

Deeming used a blunt object (battle axe head/hilt)
A knife to cut his victim's throats
Buried his victims


The latter point also works against Deeming; the Ripper presented his work openly as part of his ritual; whereas Deeming concealed his victims.

Bury also concealed his wife.


Before this turns into a Bury VS Deeming thread; both IMO have a lot in favour of being the Ripper; but neither chose to DISPLAY their victims AND both men only killed WOMEN KNOWN TO THEM.


In the Ripper we have a post mortem mutilator who displays his work deliberately to shock the public and put fear into them.
The Ripper kills women he doesn't necessarily know and doesn't kill any women related to him (as far as we know)

IMO that is the key difference between the Ripper and any known suspect that we know of.

Deeming for me though absolutely now makes my top 8 and pushes out Chapman to number 9.

Bachert, Kelly, Bury and Le Grand also included in my top 8 in no particular order.


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just started reading The Devil’s Work: Australia’s Jack the Ripper and the Serial Murders that Rocked the World by Garry Linnell. I don’t know if anyone else on here has read this one. I can’t think why I hadn’t read it so I got the Kindle version.

[The Rookie Detective]

Here is a reference to Leary or Levey...



Levey sounding like Levy; perhaps imitating a Jew.

Leary being the name of a man linked with the Pinchin Street torso

Deeming was after all seemingly a man of many faces and disguises.

Does this article form a potential link between Deeming and the murders?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Another interesting snippet...



Is there any basis of truth in this alleged statement?


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


I have always considered that the Ripper was someone outside of the generic pack of suspects.

However, I thought I'd take my very first look; yes my very first look, at Frederick Deeming.


Outside of being aware that he was a convicted serial killer; having killed more than 2 people on separate occasions, I was completely unaware of how and why he has been considered as a Ripper suspect.


Having looked at some of the threads on this site, I have tried to build up a picture of Deeming as a whole in relation to the Ripper case.

It would appear that the focus on Deeming has diminished considerably over time, possibly due to the idea that Deeming was actually in South Africa at the time of the murders.

However, I have yet to see any data that directly and definitely rules him out as being the Ripper.

Based on my initial endeavours to find the facts on Deeming, it seems that the jury is still out on whether he COULD have been the Ripper.

Unless I am missing something, it appears that Deeming is still worth consideration as a Ripper suspect.

One thing that does seem clear is that Deeming had several attributes that could be significant in relation to the Ripper case...


1 - A bigamist and conman who went by many different names and aliases... some of the key ones...

Baron Swanston
Harry Lawson
Harry Dawson
Albert Oliver Williams (Army Officer)
Mr Drewn
Mr George
Francis Duncan

etc...etc...


2 - Changed and adapted his physical appearance (one time he allegedly shaved off his facial hair quickly with a piece of broken glass just moments before an identity parade. Cutting off his moustache made him look completely different)

3 - Aggressive nature, prone to episodes of violence and rage.

4 - An eccentric extravagant narcissistic sociopath.

5 - Used a knife to cut his wives (Marie and Emily respectively) throats...and his 4 children.

6 - Hanged on 23rd May 1892...no KNOWN Ripper murders having occurred after this date.

7- Was aged 35 at the time of the Ripper murders.

8 - Overly attentive to women; often using inappropriate behaviour.

9 - Allegedly told Dr Shields that he had often gone out to search for a prostitute who had given him syphilis, with the intention of killing her...and then went on to suggest to have gotten his "own back" on "more than one" prostitute.

10 - Contracted Syphilis from a prostitute.

11 - known as "Mad Fred" as a child as a result of his odd behaviour

12 - He was obsessed with the concept of sin and punishment, allegedly carrying a Bible with him on all his travels.

13 - Had an abusive father who committed suicide by cutting his throat

14 - Had an overpowering religiously obsessive mother. The relationship with his mother was particularly odd and atypical.

15 - Had a break down after his mother died in the 1870's

16 - Spoke of his mother coming to visit him at 2am every morning, despite her having died. He claimed his mother compelled him to kill.

17 - Tried to claim insanity despite there being clear evidence of premeditated murder and pre-planning the disposal of his wife and children.

18 - Buried his family under the floor in England, and then Buried his 2nd wife Emily in a similar manner in Australia.

19 - Very charming, good with words, handsome, fair hair, blue piercing eyes, ginger moustache.

20 - March 1888 - October 1889 his precise location has still not been verified conclusively.

21 - Often played the part of an educated aristocrat; but in reality he was an uneducated plumber and gas fitters

22 - Was allegedly identified by a woman who claimed to have seen him in the East End on the night Eddowes was murdered.

23- Alleged to have confessed to the " last 2" Whitechapel murders; one of which was Alice Mckenzie.
Deeming later denied he confessed to the last 2 Ripper murders.

24 - Had a death mark made that was sent to New Scotland Yard and at the time was displayed in the "Black Museum" situated in the basement and coincidentally just yards from where the Whitehall torso was previously discovered.

25 - Must have been considered a Ripper suspect at the time because of the Death Mask being sent and displayed by the police and labelled as the face of the Ripper.



There are many more points of course...but there are a couple of others that I think are perhaps important to consider in more depth...


Now we know that Deeming did NOT murder Francis Coles, because her was in prison at the time.

This fact seems to have been one of the reasons WHY deeming has been somewhat dismissed and lost to the wind because having allegedly confessed to have committed the "last 2" Ripper murders it is obvious that based on Mckenzie being the first and Coles being the 2nd, his words aren't worth anything when the latter was proven to have not been at the hands of Deeming due to his incarceration.


However, me being me, I considered that Deeming wasn't referring to Coles at all...but perhaps referring to the Pinchin Street Torso.


I say this because there's an article that mentions yet more aliases for Deeming; namely a MR LEVY...and a MR LEARY.

So...here's my hypothesis...


Deeming murders Mckenzie but commits no abdominal mutilations...because the last actual Ripper killing was MJK...and perhaps committed by an actual abdominal mutialtor in BURY.

Deeming is trying to copy cat the Ripper.

He then kills again, by copy cat killing the Torso killer in dispatching the Pinchin Street torso; his 2nd and final East End kill.

The reason why he is the man who commits the Pinchin Street torso is that it may have been DEEMING who reported the Pinchin Street torso BEFORE the torso was actually dumped.
Deeming went to the press agency as Arnold...aka MR LEARY.

Mr Leary was an alias of Deeming, and I believe it was Deeming who poses as Arnold.


OR...

Deeming WAS the Ripper and like ALL serial killer's; they only admit to killing SOME and not all of their victims.

He kills MJK who turns out to be the woman he wanted to punish; her sharing the name Marie with his wife that he later murders.

Hutchinson's description of the man he saw with MJK fits that of Deeming.


Was Deeming Jack the Ripper?

Or was he a copy cat Ripper?

Or none of the above?




Lots to ponder


RD

p.s. and at least its not another Lechmere thread.