Cutbush - Too Easily Dismissed As A Suspect?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.

[Abby Normal]

He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

fair enough a well reasoned post.

I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.

[Harry D]

He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

Also, include William Waddle in Durham as another Ripper-inspired copycat.

[Aethelwulf]

fair enough a well reasoned post.

I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.

you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile

• the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
  • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
  • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
• of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
  • blow to the head
  • strangulation
  • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
  • victim found wearing only a chemise
  • he burnt her clothes in the fire
  • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
  • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
  • use of prostitutes
• and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
  • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
  • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
• in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
• some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
• what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
• finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper

so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef

[The Macdonald Triad]

you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile

• the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
  • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
  • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
• of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
  • blow to the head
  • strangulation
  • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
  • victim found wearing only a chemise
  • he burnt her clothes in the fire
  • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
  • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
  • use of prostitutes
• and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
  • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
  • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
• in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
• some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
• what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
• finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper

so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef

Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional. Jack killed strangers and stayed hidden. Also who cares what Scotland or Dundee thinks about it? It can be argued that they're just doing the Loch Ness Monster dance to gain notoriety and tourism money.
Another point, it is possible he wrote JTR letters but so what? A lot of nutters were writing letters. Doesn't make them the ripper.
I will agree however Bury has more going for him than Cutbush evidence wise. But stick to your instincts, you may be right. I'll stick to mine as well.

[The Macdonald Triad]

I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.

Call it a hunch. Some people are perfect angels sober but when drunk they do a Jekell and Hyde and split personalities. It's also hard to tell if they are drunk because they may be educated and be able to not slur or give an outward appearance of drunkenness. I am one of those people except I don't murder people when pissed, I get drunk and disorderly and scream at cops and their mothers. Thankfully I live in a high crime city so when I sober up they dismiss the charge.

[Aethelwulf]

Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional.

That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.

[The Macdonald Triad]

That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.

No need to go to another thread as I am drawing comparisons between who I perceive as copycats. Cutbush and Bury. Someone else brought up Jane Beadmores killer. I believe the press influenced these copycats as it does to this day. They have gone from being cosigned to oblivion like any average Joe to being attached to an infamous serial killer. It's that simple for me. And I've never dismissed Bury "out of hand " I looked into him and found him lacking. Doesn't mean I'm right. He just doesn't feel right for me. And if you want to know whom I think are better suspects, they're on my profile.

[Aethelwulf]

I looked into him and found him lacking.

this is one of the points I was making. look at what we know about bury, the points I posted, if he is lacking then i believe this case can never be solved. by that i mean we probably know most of the main points about the main suspects. none of them are proven post mortem mutilators, if they were i think we'd know by now. is it likely a new suspect will turn up like bury, i seriously doubt it. as i said, i think dismissing bury means the bar is set impossibly high. also the copy cat theory obviously falls flat for bury, because what would a copycat do without fail - cut her throat. we know he thought about it (see below) but ultimately it was the incisions of the lower body that were his fantasy. the method of killing was by the by the by.

in a case as unusual as this, who are we looking for - someone with form for the same who was there at the time. there is only bury.

the happy couple in the honeymoon period only a week after their wedding:

She screamed for help and I went into their room I found him kneeling on her in bed, he had a table knife in his right-hand, and was apparently about to cut her throat

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ll take a leaf out of Chris’s book and take the opportunity to ‘bump up’ this thread after re-reading David Bullock’s book The Man Who Would Be Jack, which I think is up there with the best of suspect books. Everyone knows that I think that Druitt is often too easily dismissed but I find it surprising to say the very least how easily Thomas Hayne Cutbush is often dismissed. The idea that he was just a bit of a weirdo who almost harmlessly stabbed a few women in their backsides with their voluminous dresses preventing any real harm being done is just not true. He was an unpredictable, deeply disturbed and very violent man. You don’t get locked in Broadmoor for life for being a bit of a harmless loony. So what do we have on him.

He lived with his mother and aunt who cared for him but were terrified of him. His mother spoke of his evil temper. He was often out all night roaming the streets, returning in the early hours via the back garden covered in mud and blood.

He was obsessed with medical matters and was always talking about diseases and cures not caring how much he might have been upsetting his listener. He spent his solitary time ‘studying’ anatomy; obsessively making anatomical drawings of women and drawings of women that had been mutilated.

His mother (and others) said that he associated with prostitutes. Inspector Race discovered from Clara Cutbush that her nephew had viciously raped a prostitute. He also claimed that a prostitute had given him syphilis.

When he became dangerously manic his mother used to send him away to seaside towns like Ramsgate in Kent.

He told a doctor in July of 1888 that he had been given syphilis by a prostitute causing rashes on his face. He became obsessed by this despite the Doctor telling him that he didn’t have syphilis. He accused that doctor of trying to poison him after he had given him a tonic which he claimed affected the bones in his face and that twisted his skin. After contacting Scotland Yard and 2 MP’s about the Doctor he asked a colleague to lend him a gun so that he could kill him.

He got a job a a Clerk at a Tea Merchants in Whitechapel on 24th July 1888 (a month before the Nichols murder note). An elderly clerk commented on how much time Cutbush spent checking his face in the mirror so he pushed him down the stairs.

He couldn’t hold down a job (but he had other jobs in the East End)

He attacked a servant girl by putting a knife to her throat for entering his room without permission.

He once described in graphic detail to his mother how Jack the Ripper had killed and mutilated his victims.

On March 4th 1891 when she spoke to him about how it might be for the best if he sought treatment in an asylum he tried to cut her throat (witnessed by a lodger - the same lodger also said that the police believed that Cutbush was the ripper)

He was taken into custody but escaped the same day. At 8.30 in the evening he brutally stabbed Florence Johnson in the back as she walked home with a friend.

He returned home but escaped again after two Constable’s arrived. While he was free he bought a Bowie knife and brutally stabbed Isabella Anderson in the back.

When Inspector Race searched his room he found a Bowie knife, drawings of horribly mutilated women and some bloodied and turpentine covered clothing hidden in a chimney breast.

When Race searched Cutbush himself he found a torn up drawing of a woman with her abdomen ripped open.

After his trial, in the papers of the Prosecutor and Cutbush’s solicitor was a statement that he was suspected of being Jack the Ripper. Inspector Race clearly believed that Cutbush was the ripper and never altered his opinion.

On a visit to Broadmoor Cutbush tried to bite his mother’s face.

It’s worth asking why Cutbush was told that he’d spend the rest of his life in an asylum for stabbing two women neither of which were life threatening injuries? Others got far more lenient sentences.

….

There are other points but these are the basics. Consider the ‘evidence’ with the ‘evidence’ for other suspects. Consider that we know that serial killers don’t always follow a script (especially if they are as unpredictable as Cutbush) Consider that we know, that for whatever reasons, serial killers can have periods of inactivity (especially considering the fact that very serious mental health issues were involved)

I’m not going to say that Cutbush was the ripper but I’ll say this…as a suspect; as a person Thomas Hayne Cutbush has more going for him that any other suspect.

[Duran duren]

Excellent post HS, I have the book also but haven't gotten around to reading that one yet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excellent post HS, I have the book also but haven't gotten around to reading that one yet.

It’s certainly worth it although no book is perfect of course. Cutbush was a dangerous man. And there are more points of course but I didn’t want to do another really long post.

[Sunny Delight]

Well the thing is that we can definitively rule out anyone because we don't know who committed these horrible crimes. However not one suspect has anywhere near enough evidence attached to them to make them viable, by modern day standards. That is why the case will never be solved. Is Cutbush dismissed too easily, I don't believe so. It might have been him but we don't know his whereabouts on the nights of the killings which to be honest is really all we would have to go on with any suspect.

Even if we did Peter Sutcliffe showed that sometimes family inadvertently back you up. I mean if we read the of the murder of Jean Jordan and the murders were still unsolved, we would be almost certain it wasn't Peter Sutcliffe, as he had a house warming party with his wife and parents on the night the killer returned to the body. It would seem to fantastical that he would leave his parents home, go to the body, mutilate it some more in a temper and then return home to his wife.

How many suspects and none that we can say with any certainty where they were on the night of the killings. No Police files to say the wife said he was home. Or files saying he signed in at work at a certain time and left at another time. All we have is linkage based on well he threatened his sister with a knife. Or well he killed his wife cut her up and then reported her death as suicide. Or he stabbed women in the behind. Or he had a clean record all his life but as he was found beside a dead woman it must have been him.

Even witness wise we can't even agree on who saw what or when. Israel Schwartz, George Hutchinson, Mary Ann Cox, Charles Cross if he can even be considered one, Elizabeth Long. People even doubt Joseph Lawende. So all in all it is a pretty big mess with very limited documental evidencd to go on. Half of it lost. Some shredded 50 years ago. Some stolen. All of the City Police records lost in the Blitz. But the case still fascinates because there is such a vacuum of information we can create our own.

[Duran duren]

So true Sunny, well said.

[Tom_Wescott]

There are other points but these are the basics. Consider the ‘evidence’ with the ‘evidence’ for other suspects. Consider that we know that serial killers don’t always follow a script (especially if they are as unpredictable as Cutbush) Consider that we know, that for whatever reasons, serial killers can have periods of inactivity (especially considering the fact that very serious mental health issues were involved)

I’m not going to say that Cutbush was the ripper but I’ll say this…as a suspect; as a person Thomas Hayne Cutbush has more going for him that any other suspect.

I'm sure you're aware AP Wolf wrote some books on Cutbush. I suspect the primary reason he's dismissed is because of Macnaghten. When the memoranda became public, it caught fire because it appeared to name the Ripper as Druitt - while simultaneously dismissing Cutbush! Therefore, Cutbush was considered a non-starter before he'd been given a fair look. Add to this the sensation surrounding the press accounts about him and he looks like a sad little man who poked some butts. But I would have to agree with Herlock that he's a far better suspect than the other police suspects of the time. Still not a great suspect, though. Bullock's book was couched in fiction. I hate that. Perhaps a discursive and serious book examining him as a suspect is in order?

Herlock?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott