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Cutbush - Too Easily Dismissed As A Suspect?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Bullock provides no sources so it rightly leaves him open for criticism. He says that his aunt and mother mention his anatomical drawings and that Inspector Race took some away with him which he showed to the journalists who wrote the 1894 series of articles. He also says that one of his employers criticised him for drawing when he should have been working but again, no sources. There are still some threads on here and JTRForums that I haven’t read so it’s possible that the information lies in research done on these. I just think that he’s a suspect that might deserve a better but than Bullock’s. Someone who can weed out the facts from the stories. Or at least put stories/rumours into context.
    As I say, the murders look like someone who is having a field day experimenting and there appears to me to be no apparent motive beyond that. It has been reasonably suggested that this person did have anatomical knowledge but was not necessarily practicing. That would fit someone obsessed with anatomy and reading a lot of books.

    Although it was never proven it was Cutbush, I don't go along with the idea that someone stabbing women from behind couldn't have been the WM. God only knows what is going on in the mind of men running around extracting female organs.

    But, in the end, I just think it needs something concrete to corroborate the newspaper article.

    I think he's a worth a look. Perhaps someone can make a connection to this 'Mile End job'.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      No handwriting examples or photo.

      His trial was 14th April 1891. Bullock says that Cutbush worked as a clerk for a tea company in the East End in 1888 as well as other jobs before and after though he provides no sources. Bullock also says that on April 19th 1891 Lloyd’s Weekly News demanded an investigation into Cutbush saying “In certain police circles there is growing feeling that it (the Cutbush case) may in the end prove to be in some way connected with the darker and more tragic mysteries of the East End.”
      thanks herlock.

      from just whats in the MM, he looks like an intriguing suspect-was in the area, Local avg joe Englishman, mental issues, proven attacker of women with knife, contemp police person of interest.
      so why was Mac so quick to dismiss him in favor of others?
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #18
        Anyone have an opinion on A.P. Wolf's book Jack the Myth?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
          Anyone have an opinion on A.P. Wolf's book Jack the Myth?
          I haven’t read that book since it first came out Scott. 30 years ago. I’ll have to give it another look when I get home.
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes

          “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

            thanks herlock.

            from just whats in the MM, he looks like an intriguing suspect-was in the area, Local avg joe Englishman, mental issues, proven attacker of women with knife, contemp police person of interest.
            so why was Mac so quick to dismiss him in favor of others?
            There’s no further detail in Bullock so I can’t say Abby. He does claim though, for what it’s worth with no sources, that after the trial in 1891 the two Sun journalists saw (in 1893) the Prosecutor De Michele’s brief and the instructions of the solicitor that defended Cutbush and found that he’d Ben suspected of being JTR. From the time of the trial Lloyds Weekly News said: “In certain police circles there is growing feeling that it (the Cutbush case) may in the end prove to be in some way connected with the darker and more tragic mysteries of the East End.” So at the very least it looks possible that the police considered him worth looking at.

            Now we get a little conspiracy minded perhaps (which might raise an eyebrow or two coming from the arch anti-conspiracist) Bullock quotes the cases of Charles Lutwig who threatened to stab Alexander Finlay, he had a history of accosting women and had threatened a woman with a knife the same day, he was in custody for just a week (according to Bullock, I haven’t checked) and a doctor called John Donkin who in 1881 was imprisoned for assaulting a number of women. He got just 3 months. Yet Cutbush got sent to Broadmoor indefinitely as a category A prisoner. Sentences will often vary of course, but Bullock’s inference is ‘did they suspect him of being the ripper so they threw away the key?’
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes

            “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

              As I say, the murders look like someone who is having a field day experimenting and there appears to me to be no apparent motive beyond that. It has been reasonably suggested that this person did have anatomical knowledge but was not necessarily practicing. That would fit someone obsessed with anatomy and reading a lot of books.

              Although it was never proven it was Cutbush, I don't go along with the idea that someone stabbing women from behind couldn't have been the WM. God only knows what is going on in the mind of men running around extracting female organs.

              But, in the end, I just think it needs something concrete to corroborate the newspaper article.

              I think he's a worth a look. Perhaps someone can make a connection to this 'Mile End job'.
              I agree. I’m wary when people suggest that we can predict how a someone like this would have acted. Who knows what might be going on in a deeply disturbed mind?
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes

              “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                There’s no further detail in Bullock so I can’t say Abby. He does claim though, for what it’s worth with no sources, that after the trial in 1891 the two Sun journalists saw (in 1893) the Prosecutor De Michele’s brief and the instructions of the solicitor that defended Cutbush and found that he’d Ben suspected of being JTR. From the time of the trial Lloyds Weekly News said: “In certain police circles there is growing feeling that it (the Cutbush case) may in the end prove to be in some way connected with the darker and more tragic mysteries of the East End.” So at the very least it looks possible that the police considered him worth looking at.

                Now we get a little conspiracy minded perhaps (which might raise an eyebrow or two coming from the arch anti-conspiracist) Bullock quotes the cases of Charles Lutwig who threatened to stab Alexander Finlay, he had a history of accosting women and had threatened a woman with a knife the same day, he was in custody for just a week (according to Bullock, I haven’t checked) and a doctor called John Donkin who in 1881 was imprisoned for assaulting a number of women. He got just 3 months. Yet Cutbush got sent to Broadmoor indefinitely as a category A prisoner. Sentences will often vary of course, but Bullock’s inference is ‘did they suspect him of being the ripper so they threw away the key?’
                thanks Herlock
                who was Race?
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #23
                  Inspector Race. Put in charge of capturing Cutbush after he’d escaped from the Lunatic Ward.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes

                  “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    Inspector Race. Put in charge of capturing Cutbush after he’d escaped from the Lunatic Ward.
                    thanks! well thats a contemp police officer that suspected of him of being the ripper-thats got to count for something. and a careful reading of the MM, Mac dosnt reject cutbush, just favors the other three over him.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      thanks! well thats a contemp police officer that suspected of him of being the ripper-thats got to count for something. and a careful reading of the MM, Mac dosnt reject cutbush, just favors the other three over him.
                      I don’t know anything like enough detail Abby and there are parts of Bullock’s book that can’t be trusted but I definitely think that Cutbush has more going for him as a suspect than most. A good, well-researched book is what we need. Whether that likely is another thing.
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes

                      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Cutbush was a suspect in a time before profiling. He doesn't fit the M.O. Besides if I remember right, him stabbing women in their rear ends was a copycat move on his part. Someone else was running around before him doing the same thing. It's also very cowardly, attacking from behind. Jack was bold, social, and invisible.

                        It is suspicious that Cutbushs Uncle topped himself off. But even the suspicion could have been too much for an Englishman of that era.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post
                          Cutbush was a suspect in a time before profiling. He doesn't fit the M.O. Besides if I remember right, him stabbing women in their rear ends was a copycat move on his part. Someone else was running around before him doing the same thing. It's also very cowardly, attacking from behind. Jack was bold, social, and invisible.

                          It is suspicious that Cutbushs Uncle topped himself off. But even the suspicion could have been too much for an Englishman of that era.
                          I’d say that profiling isn’t an exact science though not without it’s uses. He was a deeply disturbed man, obsessive and vindictive, certainly violent and certainly violent toward women, he had a reason for hating prostitutes (at least in his own mind because he believed that one had given him syphilis), he owned knives that he didn’t need for any constructive reason including a large Bowie knife, he worked in the East End/ Whitechapel and so knew the area, he had anatomical knowledge and obsessively drew mutilated women, he worked but could never hold down a job for any great length of time door to his poor timekeeping, his own mother (whose throat he tried to cut) and his aunt both said that he used to spend nights wandering the streets and often came home covered in mud and blood (entering the house by scaling a fence/wall at the back of the house so that he could use the back entrance) and when Race searched his room he found bloodied clothing covered in turpentine pushed up the chimney. And when Race questioned him he denied any knowledge of the East End despite working there for several years. Race suspected him of being the ripper and, if it’s correct, so did a prosecutor and solicitor.

                          If you compare that to most suspects then that surely makes him at least a reasonable one? Certainly one requiring further research and a more thorough book? Also, it looks like the Cutbush that committed suicide wasn’t actually his uncle according to research though I’m unsure how certain we are?
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes

                          “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            I’d say that profiling isn’t an exact science though not without it’s uses. He was a deeply disturbed man, obsessive and vindictive, certainly violent and certainly violent toward women, he had a reason for hating prostitutes (at least in his own mind because he believed that one had given him syphilis), he owned knives that he didn’t need for any constructive reason including a large Bowie knife, he worked in the East End/ Whitechapel and so knew the area, he had anatomical knowledge and obsessively drew mutilated women, he worked but could never hold down a job for any great length of time door to his poor timekeeping, his own mother (whose throat he tried to cut) and his aunt both said that he used to spend nights wandering the streets and often came home covered in mud and blood (entering the house by scaling a fence/wall at the back of the house so that he could use the back entrance) and when Race searched his room he found bloodied clothing covered in turpentine pushed up the chimney. And when Race questioned him he denied any knowledge of the East End despite working there for several years. Race suspected him of being the ripper and, if it’s correct, so did a prosecutor and solicitor.

                            If you compare that to most suspects then that surely makes him at least a reasonable one? Certainly one requiring further research and a more thorough book? Also, it looks like the Cutbush that committed suicide wasn’t actually his uncle according to research though I’m unsure how certain we are?
                            I agree he needs more research if one hasn't already. I have and eliminated him because of the MO discrepancy. The same way I eliminated George Chapman. Chapman is a prime example to me how the police of the time really had no clue. Such as Abberline thinking Chapman was the Ripper. I've never heard of the turpentine thing before. Cutbush impresses me as a pisshead. Getting drunk and wandering around being psychotic. A lot like Bury, I sense he implicated himself for attention. However one thing about him that can't be denied is that he's always getting caught and being remembered in places. Such as when he escaped from the loony bin and told a few witnesses he was being pursued as JTR. Cutbush would have stood out if spotted. He was a muppet. The whole reason the newspaper probably attacked him is to attack the police who were still being excoriated for Trafalger Square.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Macdonald Triad View Post

                              I agree he needs more research if one hasn't already. I have and eliminated him because of the MO discrepancy. The same way I eliminated George Chapman. Chapman is a prime example to me how the police of the time really had no clue. Such as Abberline thinking Chapman was the Ripper. I've never heard of the turpentine thing before. Cutbush impresses me as a pisshead. Getting drunk and wandering around being psychotic. A lot like Bury, I sense he implicated himself for attention. However one thing about him that can't be denied is that he's always getting caught and being remembered in places. Such as when he escaped from the loony bin and told a few witnesses he was being pursued as JTR. Cutbush would have stood out if spotted. He was a muppet. The whole reason the newspaper probably attacked him is to attack the police who were still being excoriated for Trafalger Square.
                              hi mac
                              I dont buy the whole MO discrepency thing. the way I look at it, its a plus for a candidates validity as a suspect, if it involves some sort of crime against the same type victim and or attack. serial killers change their MO depending on their personal circs. Bundy was unraveling at the end and changed his MO. they never would have caught the boston strangler based on just his rapes, the GSK is another example, and the list goes on.

                              the fact that cutbush was attacking women with a knife far out weighs the any dissimilarity in MO INMO. He was clearly losing it at the end there, so perhaps could explain it.

                              the main check mark against cutbush is, like Bury and other police suspects, there is no physical connection to any of the ripper deeds. That being said, he has alot going for him IMHO, and like herlock said, a definitive research/book needs to be done.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

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