Broadmoor Archives finally open

[Chris]

I'm not particularly beset by Saunderson's age in 1888 ...

If you were really not convinced by the evidence you've already been provided with, then you could easily order a copy of Saunderson's birth certificate, which would settle the matter.

On the other hand, if you're "not bothered", can't you at least refrain from posting inaccurate information that is going to mislead people?

[rjpalmer]

Not to change the topic, but surely the Broadmoor admission papers give some indication as to what medical treatment Cutbush received prior to his commital? Or, to cut to the chase, his mental condition between April 1888 and February 1891?

[Cap'n Jack]

From The Times, January 30th 1895, the trial that Chris claims never took place:

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris
only a jury can decide that.
I've yet to find a jury outside of a courtroom, in this case it was the Old Bailey. A trial took place, and a verdict was reached by the jury.

I'm not particularly beset by Saunderson's age in 1888, as it is my personal opinion that the Whitechapel Murderer was either a child or had the mind of a child... therefore Saunderson suits me fine, but I do believe he was older than 14.
But do I look boffered?

You engage the safety before you load, otherwise you could shoot yourself in the foot.

[Chris]

AP

If someone is found unfit to plead, then obviously no trial can take place.

As for Saunderson's age, as I've pointed out, Robert did provide evidence confirming that he was born in 1873, just as his father testified at the inquest. Unless you can come up with something stronger than being "quite sure that in the lower court trials [whatever that means!] the subject of his age comes up" there is no reason to doubt that he was only 14 at the time of the Whitechapel Murders.

[Cap'n Jack]

No, Chris, what yo all said was:

'Obviously this can't be the case, because there never was an Old Bailey trial - Saunderson was found unfit to plead.'

The verdict of the Old Bailey jury was that Saunderson was unfit to plead.

I haven't looked at the Saunderson case for three years now, so I'm a bit rusty, but I'm quite sure that in the lower court trials the subject of his age comes up.
Just like Cutbush, Saunderson could have been HMP'd prior to his Old Bailey trial, but for some strange reason the case was proceeded with.

[Doppelganger]

HI gang found a page online regarding with some info on our boy cutbush if this stuff has been posted please forgive me my eyesight is poor tonight.

http://www.jack-the-ripper-tour.com/thomas-cutbush.html

BTW why no casebook page on this suspect?

[Chris]

AP

As I said, Saunderson was found unfit to plead, so he couldn't be tried. If you don't understand that, read the guidance on the website you are quoting:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#unfittoplead

So where is the evidence for your claim that Saunderson's father admitted that he had perjured himself when he said in the coroner's court that Saunderson had turned 21 in 1894 - as confirmed by the extract from Walford's County Families posted by Robert, and as could obviously be checked by anyone very easily (either then or now) simply by looking in the indexes of civil registration of births?

[Cap'n Jack]

The one and only letter signed by Jack the Ripper, written in the LVP by a child who actually murdered women with a knife:

'Detective-inspector Smith, of the F Division, said he received a letter at Kensington Police-station on November 28. It was sent from Dublin, and the envelope bore the words, "Police Station, Kensington, W., London, England." The letter ran as follows:-"Dublin, Nov. 27th.-Dear Sir,-The murder that was committed I did it. I did it just to the right of the door of a gentleman. I got her by the throat and tried to choke her, but without success. I got her on the ground and cut her knife with a sloid knife. It was a very good cut. When I had cut her a fellow was coming along, so I flew for my life, but left the stick, and the knife was thrown away in the back lane in a back street. I did the murder at 12 30. So good bye. On the job. From Jack the Ripper. You will find my name is well known at certain places round there. I am now at------." That was the letter which had been identified as being in Saunderson's handwriting. '

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris
Saunderson's Old Bailey trial:

REGINALD TREHERNE BASSETT SAUNDERSON, Killing > murder, 28th January 1895.


Reference Number: t18950128-199
Offence: Killing > murder
Verdict: Miscellaneous > unfit to plead
Punishment: Imprisonment > insanity
User Wiki: Corrections; Add Information
See original
199. In the case of REGINALD TREHERNE BASSETT SAUNDERSON , charged with the wilful murder of Augusta Dawes, on the evidence of DR. GEORGE WALKER , Surgeon of Her Majesty's Prison, Holloway, and DR. EDGAR SHEPHERD , the JURY found the prisoner to be insane, and not in a condition to plead to the indictment. — To be detained until Her Majesty's pleasure be known.

Do you know how to load a Tranter?
If not I'm happy to give lessons.

[Chris]

To keep things neat and sweet.
At Saunderson's OB trial his father admitted in court that he had lied about his son's age, so it is more likely that he was at least over the age of 16 in 1888 ...

Obviously this can't be the case, because there never was an Old Bailey trial - Saunderson was found unfit to plead.

This bit of wishful thinking on your part seems to have materialised since this question was last discussed three years ago,and you said:
"It is important to note that this is based solely on a claim made by Saunderson’s father in court that his son was 21 at the time of this murder of a prostitute in 1894.
I have to say that reading through the court transcripts it does appear that Reginald Saunderson may well have been a good deal older than ‘21’.
Can anyone dig out his record of birth?"

Robert duly obliged with a scan from Walford's County Families (1909), confirming that the year of birth implied by the testimony of Saunderson's father (at the inquest) was correct, which you seemed to accept at that time.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4927/5585.html

[Cap'n Jack]

To keep things neat and sweet.
At Saunderson's OB trial his father admitted in court that he had lied about his son's age, so it is more likely that he was at least over the age of 16 in 1888, and already confined in private asylums at that early age... but allowed home leave whenever he wanted.
As I've said all along, it is a child we seek.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I still think Jack is a complete unknown to us, but out of the suspects I think this lad holds the most water (except for Druitt, but I was speaking figuratively ).

Thomas is definitely an interesting and likely candidate for the Ripper in my eyes, given what we know about him.

Are there any photos or anything?

[Mitch Rowe]

Well yes the other obvious example is one 'Aron Kosminski' ?

But certainly when you look at the murder of Mary Jane Kelly

I, for one, am happier with suspects like Kosminski, Cutbush and Kelly

Than I am with Druit, Tumbelty or Sickert.

We are after all, looking for, a local man who was sexually insane.

Pirate

I am looking for most likely a man. I have no other convictions than that. Other than he must have been meticulus.(Otherwise why did he take the time to completely remove the belly flaps in two cases? This is a preparation act. It was not part of the ritual or at least an important part.) He must have been able to keep his mouth shut and act completely normally during his "off" time.
I see no evidence of insanity. Sexual or otherwise. In fact I see a contradiction based on what I feel to be the only real evidence left. That is the conditon of the bodies and time and place where they were found. If what was reported in the inquests is even half true.

[Mitch Rowe]

'At times he was found talking in a language known only to him and would become violent if his books were taken away.'

Thomas thought he had a direct line to God, so he spoke in tongues that only God would understand... he knew his bible.
He was 'chosen'.
I imagine he spoke 'Yiddish'.

Of course it just could be that one of the basic signs of schizophrenia is odd malformed speech wich seems only the patient can understand.