What do we know about this character?

[nugnug]

lewis carol

I think this a case of blame it on anyone who was famous and alive at the time of the murders

[Gman992]

It's an example of what I like to call "a great disconnect." A writer of children tales who turns out to be a savage murderer. It's like those urban legands that have Mr. Rogers as a tattoo wearing GI or Captain Kangeroo as a Marine sniper during World War II. It absolutely makes no sense--hence no evidence--but what a story!

[slysnide]

From 8/31/88-9/30/88 Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka-Lewis Carrol) was on vacation in Eastbourne East Sussex with his friend, child actress Isla Bowman. And on 11/9/88, he was in Oxford with Thomas Vere Bayne. These are airtight alibis. I wonder why someone would implicate him on a simple anagram which you can find in a multitude of books and even news articles? Same stories or ones similar go along with many of the aptly named 'suspects' which further complicates the case. Funny isn't it how there's always a new suspect out of thin air?

[prowling cat]

Ps I actually found that many middle aged men in england remember Henty's books. Any of you around to trade impressions? It woud be so interesting since I'm trying to write an article on the impact theman had.
Thanks
Gabs Cat(alini)

[prowling cat]

Carpenter's book

Not at all, Dorian, thanks for giving me these details, which were exactly what I was hoping to hear: I wanted literary criticism and biographical details... and look where I found them, on a JtR site.
Just goes to show, well, I don't know what it goes to show, but it certainly does!
Between me and you and JtR, - and any postsers/readers of the forum, - my PhD was BORING! But I got in touch with my male side. It was on Boys Literature (maleness, class, nationality). I just couldn't pretend I was PhDing on books I myself had read at the age of 10, could I?

[Dorian Gray]

Cat,

Carpenter was a biographer and a critic. I doubt Carpenter mentioned JtR.

Though Carpenter ruthlessly hammers some of the authors to dust, one feels an undercurrent of revolt: brilliant minds riddled with a sinister, humourous grace.

I do hope my mention of the authors' peculiarities was not taken to heart, but we are discussing Carroll, and other children's authors, on a JtR forum.

Your Ph.D sounds fascinating.

Regards,

Dorian

[prowling cat]

Carpenter's book

Humphrey Carpenter's book, Secret Gardens, examined several authors of children's books, including Carroll. The authors were certainly an odd lot. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but it was a good read.

Regards,

Dorian

Hello Dorian, great... Just a sec, my tesi di dottorato (more or less PhD dissertation) was on G. A. Henty and others. Hope this doesn't make me as odd as them!
Did Carpenter's book examine the authors simply as JtR candidates, or did it discuss them as authors?
Thank you,
Cat

[Dorian Gray]

Humphrey Carpenter's book, Secret Gardens, examined several authors of children's books, including Carroll. The authors were certainly an odd lot. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but it was a good read.

Regards,

Dorian

[John Hacker]

I hope I didn't give the impression I thought him a likely suspect, though.

I never thought it for a moment.

[prowling cat]

oh, it was anagrams as clues. Do crosswords also count?

Obviously jumped a step, sorry, John, I remembered an article on his presumed obsession in photographing rather undressed young girls, and as you say, imagined that somebody, deciding he was a pervert, decided he was JtR! Thanks for giving me the details to fill in my sketchy surmise on how he was chosen. I hope I didn't give the impression I thought him a likely suspect, though.
Will read the names of crossword writers with new suspicion from now on
Buone notte
Cat

[John Hacker]

Gosh, what a lovely thought. It is a pity Dickens died in 1870, he'd have made a wonderful suspect, with his incredible knowledge of the East End.
I'm not a very knowledgeable ripperologist (yet) but I feel that Carroll has often been seen as odd, because of his relationship with the Liddell girls - that's another can of worms, no need to open it here.
Probably that sent people on to his scent as a probable Ripper candidate in the first place.
Cat

Carroll ended up as a suspect because a psychologist named Richard Wallace wrote a biography of him where he felt that Carroll was seriosly disturbed. (The Agony of Lewis Carroll) Then he decided that since Carroll was obviously an insane pervert who loved anagrams, so he delved deeply into his OWN psyche and found anagrams that he felt showed Carroll was the Ripper. He then wrote a fun little piece of lunacy called "Jack the Ripper:
Lighthearted Friend".

He "found" anagrams like this:

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Which becomes:

Bet I beat my glands til,
With hand-sword I slay the evil gender.
A slimey theme; borrow gloves,
And masturbate the hog more!

Of course you can rearrange letters to make pretty much anything you want as some college students showed when they took the opening paragraph of a Wallce article:

This is my story of Jack the Ripper, the man behind Britain's worst unsolved murders. It is a story that points to the unlikeliest of suspects: a man who wrote children's stories. That man is Charles Dodgson, better known as Lewis Carroll, author of such beloved books as Alice in Wonderland.

And "found":

The truth is this: I, Richard Wallace, stabbed and killed a muted Nicole Brown in cold blood, severing her throat with my trusty shiv's strokes. I set up Orenthal James Simpson, who is utterly innocent of this murder. P.S. I also wrote Shakespeare's sonnets, and a lot of Francis Bacon's works too.

Which is a much better anagram IMO. And I think it really illustrates one of the fundamental truths of suspect based Ripperology... you can always find what you look for.. no matter how non-sensical. (Another excellent illustration of this point is Trow's "The Way to Hell")

See http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ack-the-ripper for more.

[Jane Welland]

Thanks Justin

For clarifying - studying his photographs sounds lovely, yes. I am vaguely aware of his interest in photography - I'm quite sure information is generally absorbed by osmosis at times!

As to anagrams - I love them, personally - there's a sense of mystery about them, I think, which is why they fit so well into mysterious affairs - secret codes and all that.

I think the problem with the reality of secret anagrams, as opposed to fictional or fanciful anagrams, is that they are too easily discovered and too easily misinterpreted. Trouble is - if a set of letters can make two meanings, chances are they can make three, four or five.

Not a great deal of good as a secret code, I imagine.

But jolly good for stories!

Jane x

[Justin]

My work on Carroll was not Ripper-related -- I was studying his (very beautiful) photography. I'd long before known the Ripper allegations to be absurd on their face, but still, doesn't hurt to put Carroll's rock-solid alibi on the record!

Incidentally, Carroll went up to Oxford in 1851 and spent the majority of his life there. He did a first in maths and a second in classics at Christ Church, where he later became a maths don. In 1881 he retired to write books, but he rarely left Oxford.

[Jane Welland]

Hello Justin

In Oxford, you say? Oh well. Quelle Surprise-although, has absence ever stopped Prince Eddy? Hmm. You say you spent some time looking into Carroll-did you consider him a serious suspect at one time? I don't know much about him, other than the usual. Jane x

[Justin]

I spent two years conducting non JTR-related Carroll research. Quite aside from the ridiculous anagrams -- and the fact that nothing in Carroll's very well-documented life can be considered violent -- he was in Oxford or elsewhere when the murders were committed!

Worth adding to the defence, that's all