Bury and the Chalk Messages

[The Good Michael]

Yes. Dundee Advertiser, 12 February, 1889. The article stated: "The handwriting is apparently that of a boy and the authorities will probably attach little importance to it. But the writing is older than the discovery of the tragedy and the neighbours were startled and alarmed at the idea that one whom in their terror they associated with the Whitechapel tragedies had been living in their midst "

Thanks, just the one then? I'll check it out

Mike

[John G]

Could someone point me to the newspaper articles that deal with the messages? I can't find them and I want to verify their existence.

Thanks,

Mike

Yes. Dundee Advertiser, 12 February, 1889. The article stated: "The handwriting is apparently that of a boy and the authorities will probably attach little importance to it. But the writing is older than the discovery of the tragedy and the neighbours were startled and alarmed at the idea that one whom in their terror they associated with the Whitechapel tragedies had been living in their midst "

Interestingly, there is also an article in the Dundee Courier, 15 February, 1889, quoting an interview between a New York Herald journalist and "one of the most prominent heads of the Scotland Yard Police Force."

New York Herald: "Do you credit the man's statement that he is the original Jack the Ripper?"

Inspector: Not for a moment. Were he really the Whitechapel murderer stricken with remorse, we should have a detailed confession of all his crimes. As it is, he merely talks in a rambling incoherent way about being the author of the London Horrors."

[The Good Michael]

Could someone point me to the newspaper articles that deal with the messages? I can't find them and I want to verify their existence.

Thanks,

Mike

[Errata]

I find the chalk messages a bit of a conundrum. For instance, if they were written before the murder why didn't Bury simply rub them off, or at least ask the landlord to remove them? If they were written after the murder, therefore amounting to a confession, why did he tell the police Ellen had committed suicide?

The truth is, we have no idea how common these kinds of graffiti were, because people would clean them off rather than call the cops. It might have been the pentagram of it's day in terms of popularity among errant youth. Or it might have been singular. Kids being kids, I imagine it was somewhat more than less common, and the graffiti was considered annoying, but not frightening. It's a guess, but we also have to consider how house-proud Bury was, because if he was a chronically underemployed drunk, he might not have cared about the graffiti, or even fetishized it as a symbol of yet one more reason his life sucked. People are weird. It doesn't bother me that he didn't take it seriously.

As for why he said his wife killed herself, obviously he did that because he thought he could sell it. He was wrong, but he came pretty close. And he had good reason to think it would work, in a messed up way. Women were perceived as fragile and prone to suicide, making murdering them usually a pretty easy affair. Now, had he pursued the course of evidence that he left, of course he would have done things differently, or come up with a different story. But it's actually pretty common for killers to not do that, and there is a school of thought that claims they can't do that. Whether they don't or can't, the result is the same. Dumb choices.

The graffiti is a really screwy coincedence, and he really ought to have done something about it before going to the cops. But that he didn't isn't a sign of anything other than he didn't think about it. A condition we can easily assign to other aspects of the crime. In fact, if one sentence can sum up the entire affair, it would be that he didn't think about it. So he continues to act the way he acted from the second he laid hands on his wife. Maybe even earlier. That's not a surprise. That's entropy.

[John G]

I find the chalk messages a bit of a conundrum. For instance, if they were written before the murder why didn't Bury simply rub them off, or at least ask the landlord to remove them? If they were written after the murder, therefore amounting to a confession, why did he tell the police Ellen had committed suicide?

[John Wheat]

Yes, it's a funny coincidence that Bury would have Ripper-esque graffiti on his door before he committed a Ripper-like murder.

That's why I doubt it was written before Ellen's murder was discovered.

I think it is significant and indicates that Bury either was the Ripper or a copycat otherwise why right it or why not wipe it off?

[John Wheat]

Yes, it's a funny coincidence that Bury would have Ripper-esque graffiti on his door before he committed a Ripper-like murder.

That's why I doubt it was written before Ellen's murder was discovered.

Yes but it reportedly was written before Ellen's murder. Maybe by Ellen herself, maybe by Bury.

[Errata]

Yes, it's a funny coincidence that Bury would have Ripper-esque graffiti on his door before he committed a Ripper-like murder.

That's why I doubt it was written before Ellen's murder was discovered.

I dunno. Weird **** happens all the time.

I think the real question is does being weird make it significant? Or is it just weird?

[Harry D]

All seems a massive coincidence if Bury wasn't the Ripper or a copycat killer though. There's no other instances of that sort of graffito on any other suspects doors.

Yes, it's a funny coincidence that Bury would have Ripper-esque graffiti on his door before he committed a Ripper-like murder.

That's why I doubt it was written before Ellen's murder was discovered.

[John Wheat]

Even if the graffiti did pre-date the murder, it still sounds like a prank rather than an admission of guilt. People knew the Burys had moved from the East End. It only takes a mischievous kid or two and a little imagination.

For one, the graffiti was OUTSIDE, which increases the odds that it was written by a stranger. There were two pieces of graffiti, one by the backdoor, one by the stairwell to the basement. When I was a wee lad, you'd often find graffiti on old buildings left to spook other kids by saying that it's haunted or a serial killer lives there. I can definitely see something similar at work here.

To Harry

All seems a massive coincidence if Bury wasn't the Ripper or a copycat killer though. There's no other instances of that sort of graffito on any other suspects doors.

Cheers John

[Harry D]

To Harry D

I believe the Dundee Police established this.

Cheers John

Even if the graffiti did pre-date the murder, it still sounds like a prank rather than an admission of guilt. People knew the Burys had moved from the East End. It only takes a mischievous kid or two and a little imagination.

For one, the graffiti was OUTSIDE, which increases the odds that it was written by a stranger. There were two pieces of graffiti, one by the backdoor, one by the stairwell to the basement. When I was a wee lad, you'd often find graffiti on old buildings left to spook other kids by saying that it's haunted or a serial killer lives there. I can definitely see something similar at work here.

[John Wheat]

I'm told there is a special kind of dumb that arises from a dumb person trying to be smart. Like a train wreck of dumb... one car crashing into the next.

To Errata

I'm not sure we can conclude that Bury was dumb. I think it more likely that Bury was all over the place mentally speaking leading up to, during and after murdering Ellen. And that's why his actions at the Police Station etc were strange.

Cheers John

[Errata]

To curious

I think by the time Bury had walked into the police station Bury was all over the place mentally speaking. Which may explain his actions.

Cheers John

I'm told there is a special kind of dumb that arises from a dumb person trying to be smart. Like a train wreck of dumb... one car crashing into the next.

[John Wheat]

Indeed it is. Don't you wonder if he would have succeeded in convincing the court if he had not devolved to such an extent? Could he have carried it off earlier in his life? Had he?

And see, to me, that's another thing that doesn't make sense to me -- perhaps it will to you. Why bring up the Ripper at all if he thought he could convince the authorities Ellen's death was suicide? Why draw attention to that?

Any thoughts?

curious

To curious

I think by the time Bury had walked into the police station Bury was all over the place mentally speaking. Which may explain his actions.

Cheers John

[curious]

To curious

It is worth noting Bury nearly got off Ellen Bury's murder. It is also worth noting he may have confessed that he was the Ripper to James Berry.

Cheers John

Indeed it is. Don't you wonder if he would have succeeded in convincing the court if he had not devolved to such an extent? Could he have carried it off earlier in his life? Had he?

And see, to me, that's another thing that doesn't make sense to me -- perhaps it will to you. Why bring up the Ripper at all if he thought he could convince the authorities Ellen's death was suicide? Why draw attention to that?

Any thoughts?

curious