Questions about Ellen

[curious]

Or just talking Ellen up and making bury look worse

Interesting . . . That would probably be a possibility at a man's trial for murdering his wife.

We have glimpses into their marriage, but there's no way of knowing what their relationship was really like.

[curious]

To Curious

I doubt Bury would have admitted that the job was a con as usual Bury would have lied and blamed someone else in this case the employer. I think the "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" is too much of a coincidence and suggests Ellen either knew Bury was the Ripper or suspected he was the Ripper. Ellen probably wasn't that intelligent, she was supposedly illiterate.

Cheers John

Illiterate or nearly illiterate?

And while her writing might not have been highly skilled, perhaps she could read.

Doesn't that happen sometimes?

maybe it says more about her education than her intelligence.

curious

[Wyatt Earp]

With respect to “Did Ellen know?”, Ellen’s statement, as reported by Marjory Smith, is interesting on a couple of different levels.

It sounds like Bury was gone from home at night, and possibly overnight, on a regular basis. Hence, Bury being gone from home on the nights of the murders would not necessarily have aroused her suspicions.

If Bury was visiting or staying with pals when he was gone from home at night, then obviously it could have been to the place of one of these pals that he headed following a murder. This would have given him the opportunity to eat his victim’s flesh and clean his clothes as needed before eventually returning home, leaving Ellen in the dark.

If Bury indeed wrote the Lusk letter, and if the piece of kidney did indeed come from Eddowes, then the piece of kidney could have been stored at the place of this friend until Bury decided to mail it out. Perhaps the person Emily Marsh described was Bury’s accomplice. The person that Marsh described sounds a little old to be Bury’s buddy, but perhaps there was some criminal association between the two.

[John Wheat]

At Bury’s trial Marjory Smith testified, “I asked her [Ellen] when alone one day—‘whatever induced you to come here?’ and she answered ‘I will tell you—he goes out at night and stops with his palls and I thought he would be better to come here.’” If Bury fed her some b.s. to explain away the Ogilvie thing, she wasn’t repeating it to other people. I think she knew she’d been conned.

Your possibly right Wyatt.

The "I will tell you—he goes out at night and stops with his palls and I thought he would be better to come here" is interesting just what was Bury up to at night when he was supposedly stopping with his pals? Murdering prostitutes as Jack the Ripper?

Cheers John

[Wyatt Earp]

I doubt Bury would have admitted that the job was a con as usual Bury would have lied and blamed someone else in this case the employer.

At Bury’s trial Marjory Smith testified, “I asked her [Ellen] when alone one day—‘whatever induced you to come here?’ and she answered ‘I will tell you—he goes out at night and stops with his palls and I thought he would be better to come here.’” If Bury fed her some b.s. to explain away the Ogilvie thing, she wasn’t repeating it to other people. I think she knew she’d been conned.

[John Wheat]

Would Bury have admitted to Ellen that the job was a con?
Did Ellen know Bury was the Ripper? Not sure. And I'm not sure she could be positive unless he talked during some of his drunken bouts.

And her remark about the Ripper being "quiet now" seems fairly broad and not necessarily telling if people were wanting to discuss the killings with the Burys since they were from the East End.

We don't know enough about Ellen and her intelligence to know if she would have said that in her husband's hearing as a way of letting him know she knew about him . . .

To Curious

I doubt Bury would have admitted that the job was a con as usual Bury would have lied and blamed someone else in this case the employer. I think the "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" is too much of a coincidence and suggests Ellen either knew Bury was the Ripper or suspected he was the Ripper. Ellen probably wasn't that intelligent, she was supposedly illiterate.

Cheers John

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi, Wyatt Earp,
I agree with you that Bury seems to have had the possibility of being charming.

Early on, I pegged the Ripper as also being a charmer, and perhaps even a hawker, which Bury actually appears to have been at one time. Who knows that he didn't occasionally dabble in trinkets for the ladies even in his re-incarnation as a sawdust salesman?

Perhaps the female trinkets were from that.

Why would Bury be selling junk—these trinkets were described in the police inventory as being “of very inferior metal”—when he had a job as a sawdust merchant? There couldn’t have been any kind of money in that. There’s nothing in the trial testimony that suggests he was selling women’s trinkets. Also, the number of items involved is very small—it doesn’t look like Bury was in the trinket business.

Would Bury have admitted to Ellen that the job was a con? Or would he have been more likely to have gone off one day, pretending to check in at his new employment, then returned to weep and wail to Ellen that he'd or rather they had been done wrong and there was no job and THEY were the victims of fraud or abuse by a deceptive employer?

That’s a great point—he might well have devised some kind of story for Ellen. But he had been bugging her to move for some time—do you think she would have believed it?

I suspect that poor Ellen was deeply in love with her husband (perhaps he was the only man who even considered marriage and she believed he truly loved her). And as someone points out, there are many, many women who stay or leave then return to abusive men, some of whom even kill them.

She does seem to have been very devoted to him. No doubt he had an “I love you” or two up his sleeve when needed.

Did Ellen know Bury was the Ripper? Not sure. And I'm not sure she could be positive unless he talked during some of his drunken bouts.

However, IF he were out of the house every single night one of the women was murdered, she would know that for a fact, and IF his clothing had blood on it when he returned, she would know that . . .

Surely there would have been enough signs she had a good idea one way or the other.

I’m not sure why he would have told her (unless, as you say, he blurted something out when he was drunk). We have the evidence that he could be gone from home for a couple of days at a time. That would have given him the opportunity to fry up a kidney and clean his clothes before returning home. Also, he had a job that would have brought him into contact with butchers, which could explain the occasional presence of blood on his clothes. We don’t know how often Bury was away from home, and so it’s hard to judge how suspicious Ellen might have become.

And her remark about the Ripper being "quiet now" seems fairly broad and not necessarily telling if people were wanting to discuss the killings with the Burys since they were from the East End.

I agree. According to the report, she was asked about the Ripper. This was not something that she raised on her own.

We don't know enough about Ellen and her intelligence to know if she would have said that in her husband's hearing as a way of letting him know she knew about him . . .

Well, perhaps Errata will drop by with an I.Q. estimate for her as well.

[Abby Normal]

Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

"They seemed very affectionate."

So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:

• he has given her v.d.
• he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
• he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
• he has soaked her inheritance dry
• he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister

And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.

Or just talking Ellen up and making bury look worse

[curious]

Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

"They seemed very affectionate."

So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:

• he has given her v.d.
• he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
• he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
• he has soaked her inheritance dry
• he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister

And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.

Hi, Wyatt Earp,
I agree with you that Bury seems to have had the possibility of being charming.

Early on, I pegged the Ripper as also being a charmer, and perhaps even a hawker, which Bury actually appears to have been at one time. Who knows that he didn't occasionally dabble in trinkets for the ladies even in his re-incarnation as a sawdust salesman?

Perhaps the female trinkets were from that.

Would Bury have admitted to Ellen that the job was a con? Or would he have been more likely to have gone off one day, pretending to check in at his new employment, then returned to weep and wail to Ellen that he'd or rather they had been done wrong and there was no job and THEY were the victims of fraud or abuse by a deceptive employer?

I suspect that poor Ellen was deeply in love with her husband (perhaps he was the only man who even considered marriage and she believed he truly loved her). And as someone points out, there are many, many women who stay or leave then return to abusive men, some of whom even kill them.

Did Ellen know Bury was the Ripper? Not sure. And I'm not sure she could be positive unless he talked during some of his drunken bouts.

However, IF he were out of the house every single night one of the women was murdered, she would know that for a fact, and IF his clothing had blood on it when he returned, she would know that . . .

Surely there would have been enough signs she had a good idea one way or the other.

And her remark about the Ripper being "quiet now" seems fairly broad and not necessarily telling if people were wanting to discuss the killings with the Burys since they were from the East End.

We don't know enough about Ellen and her intelligence to know if she would have said that in her husband's hearing as a way of letting him know she knew about him . . .

[Wyatt Earp]

Charm may have nothing to do with it, even today many women stay with men who physically and emotionally abuse them. yes and remain affectionate towards them, at least outwardly and at times it seems hold genuine affection.

Thanks for that, GUT. Bury does seem to line up well with the profile of a psychopath—and a common trait among psychopaths is superficial charm.

[GUT]

Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

"They seemed very affectionate."

So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:

• he has given her v.d.
• he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
• he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
• he has soaked her inheritance dry
• he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister

And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.

Charm may have nothing to do with it, even today many women stay with men who physically and emotionally abuse them. yes and remain affectionate towards them, at least outwardly and at times it seems hold genuine affection.

[Wyatt Earp]

Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

"They seemed very affectionate."

So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:

• he has given her v.d.
• he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
• he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
• he has soaked her inheritance dry
• he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister

And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.

[Wyatt Earp]

To Wyatt

It seems to me that it would be too much of a coincidence that Ellen would make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" possibly in reference to who I and others, yourself included, regard as by far and away the strongest Ripper suspect.

Cheers John

Fair enough. I think it’s possible that Ellen knew he was the Ripper—I’m just not convinced of it.

I also think it’s possible she had her suspicions but wasn’t completely sure.

[John Wheat]

To Wyatt

It seems to me that it would be too much of a coincidence that Ellen would make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" possibly in reference to who I and others, yourself included, regard as by far and away the strongest Ripper suspect.

Cheers John

[Wyatt Earp]

To Wyatt

Why would Ellen make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now". If she didn't at least suspect Bury was Jack?

Ellen was reported to have made this remark on January 29 (Macpherson, pp.72-74). It had been quite a while since the Kelly murder. Any person could have made such a remark in conversation at that time.