Does anything rule Bury out?

[Rainbow]

I am still with the opinion to remove Bury from the suspects list.


Rainbow°

[Harry D]

It is way more than enough, Bury is only a candidate for his wife's murder!


Rainbow°

Whereas Lechmere is the candidate for precisely zero murders.

[Rainbow]

OK I'll put my head over the parapet...

(a) he didn't cut her throat - JtR did

(b) he employed a ligature - JtR didn't

(C) his abdominal mutilations, such as they were, seem tentative if not imitatory

(D) Does he leave her posed on the street? No he attempts to pack her into a wooden box, breaking her leg in the process...

(E) He's not quick witted - he hangs around for almost a week as if wondering what to do...christ all he had to do was have a shave and catch a train...any train, headed anywhere...this was maybe the last generation that could make a trace-free fresh start - Cadosche did...this guy could've...and didn't...

(F) far from any escape strategy or even hasty risk taking, he eventually wanders down to the local copshop and effectively (though Wyatt Earp denies it) hands himself in...

Is this not enough?

It is way more than enough, Bury is only a candidate for his wife's murder!


Rainbow°

[John Wheat]

I I'm trying to help the Buryites out here. Just take that morsel and run with it. You have nothing else.

You mean compared to other suspects where there is a wealth of evidence? Oh wait there isn't.

[The Good Michael]

If Ellen Bury killed herself, as her husband said, then Bury still could be the Ripper murderer. I'm trying to help the Buryites out here. Just take that morsel and run with it. You have nothing else.

Mike

[Fisherman]

It's ironic, because the reason people generally dismiss Stride as a Ripper victim is because she only had her throat slashed and suffered no post-mortem mutilations. However, when it comes to Ellen Bury, it's the lack of throat cutting that's the key and not the presence of abdominal mutilations.

How is that ironic? Stride was the only one not to get eviscerated, so she is the the most questionable victim of the C5 by virtue of that.

Ellen Bury did not have the hallmark sign that ALL the Ripper victims had: a cut neck. So she becomes quite questionable on account of (among other things) that.

There is no irony anywhere near it, just sound questioning on good grounds in both cases.

[Single-O-Seven]

It's ironic, because the reason people generally dismiss Stride as a Ripper victim is because she only had her throat slashed and suffered no post-mortem mutilations. However, when it comes to Ellen Bury, it's the lack of throat cutting that's the key and not the presence of abdominal mutilations.

Yes, I find that argument a bit odd when you consider the difference between modus operandi and signature. I do believe Stride was a Ripper victim, and that he simply didn't have the time to fulfill his "desires," which would be the mutilations, i.e. the killer's signature. With Ellen, a different MO largely implies he had different means/opportunity in killing her. The post-mortem signature, I would suspect, is much more telling as to whether Bury may have been the same killer as the Ripper. And given how unique and perverse that signature is, it makes it even more telling. Granted, they may not have been as extensive on Ellen as on Kelly, etc, but the "personal factor" of Ellen having been his wife, plus knowing how heavily suspicion would fall on him if a room in his own house looked like 13 Miller's Court, Bury may have been a little more cautious, frightened, or even felt guilty about going too far. The fact that he bothered with the signature at all is a good sign, I should think, that he just HAD to get off on the murder a little; you might say he was "edging" himself without going for the full out orgasmic experience.

For those with more extensive criminology knowledge, or who have a keener interest in history's serial killers, are there any examples of killers with noted signatures scaling them back, perhaps because of familiarity to the victim, etc?

[wigngown]

Boggles,

Thank you for that information,

Best regards.

[wigngown]

The Good Michael

Nothing you have said even remotely excludes Bury as the Whitechapel killer, infact you come accross as a bit desperate.

Posting empty headed comments about a woman who was brutally murdered is not clever or funny either. huh?

[The Good Michael]

Bury's wife killed herself so that her husband wouldn't kill her the way he killed the others. She did this as a final act of revenge for her impending death.

Case closed.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Attack?! Good grief. Had I wanted to I could have pointed out that if, according to you, Bury didn't see two chalked messages on his own back door, he was fairly dull. Incorrect. Had Bury seen the messages and not removed them, now that would have been fairly dull. But we don't know if he seen them, or had written them, do we? There is no evidence that Bury was bright, so you conclude he wasn't? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's not about anything other than you posting comments which infer that you alone have the monopoly on common sense. Did you not think I'd considered the chalk messages? Why didn't you just say, in your opinion, Bury is a weak candidate? Bury is a better candidate than some, and not as good as others. I think we are finished with this debate.

Not noticing chalked messages that might incriminate you at your back door would be an example of not being bright or being unaware of your surroundings. I never said Bury wasn't bright. You do if you suggest he couldn't have known of the messages.

Mike

[Boggles]

There is no evidence that Bury was bright, so you conclude he wasn't?

having read his letters and the witness statements, character references and the newspaper reports I have no doubt that Bury was bright, i have no doubt he was also indolent and psychotic.

[Harry D]

It's ironic, because the reason people generally dismiss Stride as a Ripper victim is because she only had her throat slashed and suffered no post-mortem mutilations. However, when it comes to Ellen Bury, it's the lack of throat cutting that's the key and not the presence of abdominal mutilations.

[wigngown]

Attack?! Good grief. Had I wanted to I could have pointed out that if, according to you, Bury didn't see two chalked messages on his own back door, he was fairly dull. Incorrect. Had Bury seen the messages and not removed them, now that would have been fairly dull. But we don't know if he seen them, or had written them, do we? There is no evidence that Bury was bright, so you conclude he wasn't? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It's not about anything other than you posting comments which infer that you alone have the monopoly on common sense. Did you not think I'd considered the chalk messages? Why didn't you just say, in your opinion, Bury is a weak candidate? Bury is a better candidate than some, and not as good as others. I think we are finished with this debate.

[The Good Michael]

Perhaps you should stop asking questions in such a lofty manner, the underlying inference being that people haven't considered the blindingly obvious. Sorry but its an Atypical symptom of being a Teacher.

So instead of considering that you may have taken my question the wrong way, you immediately go on the attack? That makes no sense to me. You said that the Ripper wasn't stupid or something to that effect. I pointed out that to either write the chalk messages or to not see them doesn't bear that out. There is no evidence that Bury was bright. I would suggest the opposite. If the Ripper was smart and Bury wasn't, there's hole in the Bury case. I think Bury is a weak candidate. After ready Beadle's absolutely Barnum and Bailey dissertation, I gleaned nothing that sways me. As Errata says, if the chalk messages were really there, that is something odd.

People take their suspects to seriously and they all have major holes.

Mike