The ripper is dead 1890

[Aethelwulf]

Just reposting this comment and newspaper article RJ found (below). I suggest the reason the police thought the ripper was dead in 1890 could be connected to the investigation into Bury. Berry the hangman related the following conversation:

• 'I think it is him right enough (Berry)', 'And we agree with you', replied one of the detectives, 'We know all about his movements in the past, and we are quite satisfied that you have hanged Jack the Ripper'.

The presence of two detectives at Bury's execution is corroborated by Hastings (comments as transcribed on Steve Earp's site):

• “On the day before his execution two detectives were sent from London to be present should he make a last statement. This I myself only learned years afterwards, so carefully guarded was the secret, but it shows the importance Scotland Yard attached to their discoveries”

The sentence 'we know all about his movements in the past' is also likely to be linked to the other information Hastings found out namely: missing from his lodgings on the nights of Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly; thought he had the opportunity to commit the crimes; looked like the man seen talking to kelly and fitted the description of the man seen after two other murders.

Also:

• “the facts they gathered (Scotland Yard) pointed more and more clearly to Bury being Jack the Ripper, but it was a slow task, entailing months of work, and they had been ordered to make nothing public”
• Scotland Yard "kept their own counsel, and when Bury came up for trial it was the common opinion that he was guilty of the Whitechapel crimes and would make a full confession in the event of his being condemned to death”

At some level, Scotland Yard believed Bury was the ripper. I believe that explains the article below IMO.


RJ's comment: How seriously one should take it is a matter of debate or judgment, but there were claims that Scotland Yard thought "Jack the Ripper" was dead four months before Aaron Kosminski was even sent to the workhouse.


[/QUOTE]

[Elamarna]

Just reposting this comment and newspaper article RJ found (below). I suggest the reason the police thought the ripper was dead in 1890 could be connected to the investigation into Bury. Berry the hangman related the following conversation:

• 'I think it is him right enough (Berry)', 'And we agree with you', replied one of the detectives, 'We know all about his movements in the past, and we are quite satisfied that you have hanged Jack the Ripper'.

The presence of two detectives at Bury's execution is corroborated by Hastings (comments as transcribed on Steve Earp's site):

• “On the day before his execution two detectives were sent from London to be present should he make a last statement. This I myself only learned years afterwards, so carefully guarded was the secret, but it shows the importance Scotland Yard attached to their discoveries”

The sentence 'we know all about his movements in the past' is also likely to be linked to the other information Hastings found out namely: missing from his lodgings on the nights of Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly; thought he had the opportunity to commit the crimes; looked like the man seen talking to kelly and fitted the description of the man seen after two other murders.

Also:

• “the facts they gathered (Scotland Yard) pointed more and more clearly to Bury being Jack the Ripper, but it was a slow task, entailing months of work, and they had been ordered to make nothing public”
• Scotland Yard "kept their own counsel, and when Bury came up for trial it was the common opinion that he was guilty of the Whitechapel crimes and would make a full confession in the event of his being condemned to death”

At some level, Scotland Yard believed Bury was the ripper. I believe that explains the article below IMO.


RJ's comment: How seriously one should take it is a matter of debate or judgment, but there were claims that Scotland Yard thought "Jack the Ripper" was dead four months before Aaron Kosminski was even sent to the workhouse.

[/QUOTE]

The problem with such unattributed reports is well..... that they are unattributed.

Steve

[Aethelwulf]

The problem with such unattributed reports is well..... that they are unattributed.

Steve


[/QUOTE]

Yet it is there in print and deserves to be looked into. Was there a suspect at the time who would have fitted this report and 'strong opinion' and was dead by 1890? Definitely. As Steve Earp suggested, it seems clear there were two possible police solutions to the ripper's ID.

Is it not logical that the one suspect who actually murdered and mutilated a woman (in some ways almost identical to the ripper), who also fits the physical description and profile of the murderer, and who was actually missing from his lodgings on the nights in question (where his lodgings were known), and who was considered to have had the opportunity to commit the crimes, was actually the criminal?

It's a shame we don't have the names of these detectives. Are we looking at something similar to the Yorkshire ripper - i.e. official line is the ripper was from wearside, some of those below thought differently (and correctly). If Sutcliffe had died before being caught, there would be a lot of people scouring records from the north east looking for possible murderer, when his identity was disregarded and the report shelved because the suspect didn't have a wearside accent.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This article is also dated less than a year before a West of England M.P. (believed to have been Farquharsen of course) was going around telling people that the ripper was a surgeon’s son who had committed suicide.

But yes it’s certainly an interesting snippet and I can’t think of any solid reason why it couldn’t have been Bury. This doesn’t mean that SY had to have known the identity of the killer (and no one is suggested that it does of course) but it could have been that elements within the yard thought that they knew the killer.. while others disagreed. 135 years later and little has changed.

[Aethelwulf]

This article is also dated less than a year before a West of England M.P. (believed to have been Farquharsen of course) was going around telling people that the ripper was a surgeon’s son who had committed suicide.

But yes it’s certainly an interesting snippet and I can’t think of any solid reason why it couldn’t have been Bury. This doesn’t mean that SY had to have known the identity of the killer (and no one is suggested that it does of course) but it could have been that elements within the yard thought that they knew the killer.. while others disagreed. 135 years later and little has changed.

Yes, there are other options, including Druitt. I'm just thinking along the lines of 'strong opinion'. The information Hastings found is definitely strong opinion, more so I would argue than the other options in 1890.

[The Baron]

At some level, Scotland Yard believed Bury was the ripper. I believe that explains the article below IMO.

Neither Anderson nor Swanson or Abberline or Macnaghten believed Bury was the ripper.


TB

[Aethelwulf]

Neither Anderson nor Swanson or Abberline or Macnaghten believed Bury was the ripper.


TB

You know it's a weak argument.

George Oldfield and all other senior officers thought the Yorkshire Ripper wasn't a local.

[Dickere]

This article is also dated less than a year before a West of England M.P. (believed to have been Farquharsen of course) was going around telling people that the ripper was a surgeon’s son who had committed suicide.

But yes it’s certainly an interesting snippet and I can’t think of any solid reason why it couldn’t have been Bury. This doesn’t mean that SY had to have known the identity of the killer (and no one is suggested that it does of course) but it could have been that elements within the yard thought that they knew the killer.. while others disagreed. 135 years later and little has changed.

That was going to be my question, Herlock. Is there anything that leans away from Bury being the killer. Perhaps if we tried to rank suspects in this way we could pretty much rule some out at least to see who's left.

[Aethelwulf]

That was going to be my question, Herlock. Is there anything that leans away from Bury being the killer. Perhaps if we tried to rank suspects in this way we could pretty much rule some out at least to see who's left.

My feeling is that having put in all the months of detailed work that was suggesting Bury was the ripper, it came down to whether he would confess, hence the detectives sent to his execution. Obviously he didn't confess, which left it open-ended. It is clear that someone in authority did put weight in Bury - if you look at the statements you have the detectives being 'sent' to Bury's execution and and 'ordered to say nothing'. My point is that we have been left with the narrative of those who had the authority to inform opinion. That is the high ranking officials - we don't have the opinions of the likes of someone like PC lapdew in the Y ripper case, but I think this is the type of people hastings was probably talking to.

It's my opinion that there would need to be a very good reason to rule Bury out, as police at the clearly weren't able to do. Remember, the man who killed and mutilated his wife some very perverse ways is missing from his lodgings in the east end on the nights in question, is said to have looked like the man talking to kelly and is a good fit to some of the other witness statements. It's not well thought of, but the FBI profile is basically a tick list of Bury's profile and life.

[Sunny Delight]

My feeling is that having put in all the months of detailed work that was suggesting Bury was the ripper, it came down to whether he would confess, hence the detectives sent to his execution. Obviously he didn't confess, which left it open-ended. It is clear that someone in authority did put weight in Bury - if you look at the statements you have the detectives being 'sent' to Bury's execution and and 'ordered to say nothing'. My point is that we have been left with the narrative of those who had the authority to inform opinion. That is the high ranking officials - we don't have the opinions of the likes of someone like PC lapdew in the Y ripper case, but I think this is the type of people hastings was probably talking to.

It's my opinion that there would need to be a very good reason to rule Bury out, as police at the clearly weren't able to do. Remember, the man who killed and mutilated his wife some very perverse ways is missing from his lodgings in the east end on the nights in question, is said to have looked like the man talking to kelly and is a good fit to some of the other witness statements. It's not well thought of, but the FBI profile is basically a tick list of Bury's profile and life.

I believe the Ripper was a local man probably spoken to on a number of occasions by Police and either dismissed as a suspect or not followed up. His name is buried forever amongst the files long lost or destroyed just as Peter Sutcliffe or Robert Nappers would have been. It was luck that caught Sutcliffe and a fingerprint that nailed Napper. With seemingly no luck and very little if any scientific help the Police didn't stand a chance.

[Aethelwulf]

I believe the Ripper was a local man probably spoken to on a number of occasions by Police and either dismissed as a suspect or not followed up. His name is buried forever amongst the files long lost or destroyed just as Peter Sutcliffe or Robert Nappers would have been. It was luck that caught Sutcliffe and a fingerprint that nailed Napper. With seemingly no luck and very little if any scientific help the Police didn't stand a chance.

You won't convince me of your position and I won't convince you of mine. I just see as it as too much of a coincidence that there is a suspect that has everything we're looking for. Decades and decades more searching isn't going to turn up more likely suspect than Bury.

[Sunny Delight]

You won't convince me of your position and I won't convince you of mine. I just see as it as too much of a coincidence that there is a suspect that has everything we're looking for. Decades and decades more searching isn't going to turn up more likely suspect than Bury.

On the face of it Bury is a good suspect and someone who deserves a close look. However there is no suspect that we can place in the vicinity of the crimes or question an alibi for. There is a dearth of files in relation to the case compared to the huge caseload that was developed at the time. We could find tens if not hundreds of names in there which would have been of 'interest' I am quite sure. If I had to go for anything it would be Hutchinson's guy who he then saw at the market on Sunday morning. 'I believe that he lives in the neighborhood, and I fancied that I saw him in Petticoat-lane on Sunday morning, but I was not certain.'. For me that's our guy.

[Aethelwulf]

I believe the Ripper was a local man probably spoken to on a number of occasions by Police and either dismissed as a suspect or not followed up. His name is buried forever amongst the files long lost or destroyed just as Peter Sutcliffe or Robert Nappers would have been. It was luck that caught Sutcliffe and a fingerprint that nailed Napper. With seemingly no luck and very little if any scientific help the Police didn't stand a chance.

The logic of what you suggest is sound, but I would argue were it not for the investigations of Hastings, what you describe would apply to Bury pretty well. Essentially, Bury is that man. He was local and we know that none of the higher officials ever mentioned him (that we know of anyway). Were it not for Hastings, the details of a team of 12 detectives and months of detailed work investigating Bury would be lost, as would all the details of the police tracing his movements and finding out he was absent from home on the nights in question, and that the police considered him to look like some of the witness suggestions, and that indeed they thought he was the ripper. The file on Bury has gone and all that info on what sounds like the biggest single investigation into a suspect would never have come to light. All we would have is a couple sentences from Berry the hangman.

Now you could argue that files on some other suspect like Bury could have been lost, but an investigation of that size would need a reason to begin in the first place (e.g. what Bury did to his wife) and I can't help thinking we would know about something that serious through the press.