Interesting link

[Abby Normal]

Abby, in The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations by Keppel and Birnes there is a profile of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer" (their murders do not necessarily include rapes because some of them are unable to get an erection). When these guys have wives, "In the marriage, there has generally been a history of spousal abuse" (p. 157). These are also killers who are likely to take souvenirs or trinkets from their victims.

Hi Wyatt
Case examples?

Again-my question is what serial killing women murderers were known to be a wife abuser. I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.

I gave three more famous examples-Bundy, BTK and Ridgeway. Jerry brudos (the foot fetish guy)is another.
I apreciate you and JohnWheat providing the psychological/FBI profling aspect but without the case examples to back it up its hard to validate.

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi Wyatt
Case examples?

Again-my question is what serial killing women murderers were known to be a wife abuser. I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.

I gave three more famous examples-Bundy, BTK and Ridgeway. Jerry brudos (the foot fetish guy)is another.
I apreciate you and JohnWheat providing the psychological/FBI profling aspect but without the case examples to back it up its hard to validate.

Abby, I wish I could give you multiple names, but the chapter in the book only gives one person as a "case example" -- Robert Lee Parker.

Btw, here is a fuller list of characteristics of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer":

1. likely that the victim would come from his own age group or older
2. overkill
3. sates anger with percussive assaults (fists, blunt objects or knife)
3. places the body into a submissive position
4. takes trinkets or souvenirs

So Bury's abuse of his wife rather than hurt might actually help his candidacy by associating him with a profile that seems to match up with the Ripper.

[Bridewell]

Btw, here is a fuller list of characteristics of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer":

1. likely that the victim would come from his own age group or older
2. overkill
3. sates anger with percussive assaults (fists, blunt objects or knife)
3. places the body into a submissive position
4. takes trinkets or souvenirs

So Bury's abuse of his wife rather than hurt might actually help his candidacy by associating him with a profile that seems to match up with the Ripper.

Except that the Ripper was not a Rape Murderer, was he?

Regards, Bridewell

[GregBaron]

Thinker...

Greg, if Bury had put on an MJK-style show with Ellen's body, he would have announced to all of Britain that the Ripper was in Dundee. And who had just come to Dundee from the East End? The Burys. I'd suggest that a major de-escalation is exactly what you should expect from Bury since he was hoping to escape from his situation.

This is a good point Wyatt but why mutilate at all? Couldn't this indicate the ripper was indeed in Dundee? If he intended to copycat and lay Ellen in the street, he could have said, "see, the ripper got her, he must have moved to Dundee". If he just couldn't help but mutilate due to urges, I wouldn't expect such a de-escalation..

Whether ripper or copycat, he wasn't thinking very well...


Greg

[Wyatt Earp]

Except that the Ripper was not a Rape Murderer, was he?

As I mentioned in post 29 further up the thread, some of these guys could evidently not perform under "murderous circumstances" although they otherwise belonged in that category of killer. Since the Ripper does not appear to have done the deed with his victims, it's possible that he was one of those guys. This raises...erm...brings up...erm...no, I mean "highlights" the possibility that William Bury had "ED." :-)

[Wyatt Earp]

This is a good point Wyatt but why mutilate at all? Couldn't this indicate the ripper was indeed in Dundee? If he intended to copycat and lay Ellen in the street, he could have said, "see, the ripper got her, he must have moved to Dundee". If he just couldn't help but mutilate due to urges, I wouldn't expect such a de-escalation..

He evidently couldn't resist the urge to do at least a little jabbing. I assume he considered his options and he determined that taking her body outside of the house was too risky or was not his best shot.

[Wyatt Earp]

I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.

Another thought: I think you're right that among the well-known serial killers the norm may well be that there is a good relationship with the partner. But what's important in assessing Bury is not how he compares to the well-known serial killers but how he compares to the serial killer population as a whole. Evidently there are enough serial killers who abuse their partners that this trait is specifically mentioned in connection with one of the types of serial killers. So if Bury is in this respect kind of an oddball within the serial killer population as a whole, he might nevertheless be "normal" within his subgroup.

[Abby Normal]

Another thought: I think you're right that among the well-known serial killers the norm may well be that there is a good relationship with the partner. But what's important in assessing Bury is not how he compares to the well-known serial killers but how he compares to the serial killer population as a whole. Evidently there are enough serial killers who abuse their partners that this trait is specifically mentioned in connection with one of the types of serial killers. So if Bury is in this respect kind of an oddball within the serial killer population as a whole, he might nevertheless be "normal" within his subgroup.

Hi Wyatt
Thanks for the response, but I disagree. I would go the other way. I think that the best way to go about assessing suspects like Bury, is to find other serial killers that are most similar (narrowing it down)to JtR and see if their background/experience matches up to the suspect you have in mind, such as Bury.

For example, a not very well known serial killer by the name of William Suff, the Riverside prostitute killer, had some of the most similar characteristics to JtR as any serial killer I've heard of: Victims were prostitutes, strangulation, knife used, post mortem mutilation, genitals/breast targeted, left displayed, body parts/trophies taken. He was married and there is nothing in his record that he abused physically his wife eventhough they eventually divorced.

I think its just a more accurate way to assess than working backward from a nebulous "profile" of characteristics. But thats just me. But again, i would not rule Bury out just on this-I think he is still a viable suspect. i just think it lessens his candidacy a tad.


BTW, could not help but notice your screen name and wonder-are you a fan of the history of the Old West?

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi Wyatt
Thanks for the response, but I disagree. I would go the other way. I think that the best way to go about assessing suspects like Bury, is to find other serial killers that are most similar (narrowing it down)to JtR and see if their background/experience matches up to the suspect you have in mind, such as Bury.

For example, a not very well known serial killer by the name of William Suff, the Riverside prostitute killer, had some of the most similar characteristics to JtR as any serial killer I've heard of: Victims were prostitutes, strangulation, knife used, post mortem mutilation, genitals/breast targeted, left displayed, body parts/trophies taken. He was married and there is nothing in his record that he abused physically his wife eventhough they eventually divorced.

I think its just a more accurate way to assess than working backward from a nebulous "profile" of characteristics. But thats just me. But again, i would not rule Bury out just on this-I think he is still a viable suspect. i just think it lessens his candidacy a tad.


BTW, could not help but notice your screen name and wonder-are you a fan of the history of the Old West?

Fair enough. Profiles are just guides, and are of limited value. I think it has to be expected that a given suspect will not match each and every element of one. The police of course do use profiles, so they must find them to be a useful tool in tracking down their quarry. I am not a special student of the Old West.

[Abby Normal]

Fair enough. Profiles are just guides, and are of limited value. I think it has to be expected that a given suspect will not match each and every element of one. The police of course do use profiles, so they must find them to be a useful tool in tracking down their quarry. I am not a special student of the Old West.

Hi Wyatt
I agree-profiles have their place and can definitely help an investigation.

FYI-I just finished a great book called "Draw!" about famous gunfights/gunfighters of the Old West. I dont have it in front of me but if you are interested I can also get the authors name for you. Its very comprehensive, informative and fascinating as well as a cracking good read. highly recommended.

[John Wheat]

To Abby
I think the fact that Bury was abusive to his wife increases his chances of being the Ripper rather than lessens them.

[Phil Carter]

BMJ and University of Dundee

Hello all,

Another interesting little snippet herewith from the BMJ

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1082009/?page=6

best wishes

Phil

[RavenDarkendale]

To Abby
I think the fact that Bury was abusive to his wife increases his chances of being the Ripper rather than lessens them.

Well statistically, it increases his chances of being a murderer. He is violent with her, and so with others.

To be a serial murderer based on violence to his wife is a different ball of wax. Usually this evolves into the fact that he hates her and symbolically kills her by selecting victims that remind him of her. THIS WILL LAST UNTIL HE GETS THE COURAGE TO MURDER HER.

Looks wise, the C5 are all over the map. This could point to a murderer whose only criteria was the victim must be female and alone. There is no evidence that Catherine Eddows was soliciting at the time of her murder,for example, she was headed home having been released from jail. As she already stated she would get "a damn fine hiding" when she did arrive home, it is doubtful she would take time out to solicit, she would be hurrying home

Just a thought

Darkendale

[Boggles]

Another interesting little snippet herewith from the BMJ

Phil - Thanks for that, very interesting.