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  • #31
    Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
    Abby, in The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations by Keppel and Birnes there is a profile of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer" (their murders do not necessarily include rapes because some of them are unable to get an erection). When these guys have wives, "In the marriage, there has generally been a history of spousal abuse" (p. 157). These are also killers who are likely to take souvenirs or trinkets from their victims.
    Hi Wyatt
    Case examples?

    Again-my question is what serial killing women murderers were known to be a wife abuser. I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.

    I gave three more famous examples-Bundy, BTK and Ridgeway. Jerry brudos (the foot fetish guy)is another.
    I apreciate you and JohnWheat providing the psychological/FBI profling aspect but without the case examples to back it up its hard to validate.
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 04-11-2012, 08:06 PM.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      Hi Wyatt
      Case examples?

      Again-my question is what serial killing women murderers were known to be a wife abuser. I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.

      I gave three more famous examples-Bundy, BTK and Ridgeway. Jerry brudos (the foot fetish guy)is another.
      I apreciate you and JohnWheat providing the psychological/FBI profling aspect but without the case examples to back it up its hard to validate.
      Abby, I wish I could give you multiple names, but the chapter in the book only gives one person as a "case example" -- Robert Lee Parker.

      Btw, here is a fuller list of characteristics of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer":

      1. likely that the victim would come from his own age group or older
      2. overkill
      3. sates anger with percussive assaults (fists, blunt objects or knife)
      3. places the body into a submissive position
      4. takes trinkets or souvenirs

      So Bury's abuse of his wife rather than hurt might actually help his candidacy by associating him with a profile that seems to match up with the Ripper.
      “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

      William Bury, Victorian Murderer
      http://www.williambury.org

      Comment


      • #33
        Btw, here is a fuller list of characteristics of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer":

        1. likely that the victim would come from his own age group or older
        2. overkill
        3. sates anger with percussive assaults (fists, blunt objects or knife)
        3. places the body into a submissive position
        4. takes trinkets or souvenirs

        So Bury's abuse of his wife rather than hurt might actually help his candidacy by associating him with a profile that seems to match up with the Ripper.
        Except that the Ripper was not a Rape Murderer, was he?

        Regards, Bridewell
        "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

        Comment


        • #34
          Thinker...

          Greg, if Bury had put on an MJK-style show with Ellen's body, he would have announced to all of Britain that the Ripper was in Dundee. And who had just come to Dundee from the East End? The Burys. I'd suggest that a major de-escalation is exactly what you should expect from Bury since he was hoping to escape from his situation.
          This is a good point Wyatt but why mutilate at all? Couldn't this indicate the ripper was indeed in Dundee? If he intended to copycat and lay Ellen in the street, he could have said, "see, the ripper got her, he must have moved to Dundee". If he just couldn't help but mutilate due to urges, I wouldn't expect such a de-escalation..

          Whether ripper or copycat, he wasn't thinking very well...


          Greg

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
            Except that the Ripper was not a Rape Murderer, was he?
            As I mentioned in post 29 further up the thread, some of these guys could evidently not perform under "murderous circumstances" although they otherwise belonged in that category of killer. Since the Ripper does not appear to have done the deed with his victims, it's possible that he was one of those guys. This raises...erm...brings up...erm...no, I mean "highlights" the possibility that William Bury had "ED." :-)
            “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

            William Bury, Victorian Murderer
            http://www.williambury.org

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by GregBaron View Post
              This is a good point Wyatt but why mutilate at all? Couldn't this indicate the ripper was indeed in Dundee? If he intended to copycat and lay Ellen in the street, he could have said, "see, the ripper got her, he must have moved to Dundee". If he just couldn't help but mutilate due to urges, I wouldn't expect such a de-escalation..
              He evidently couldn't resist the urge to do at least a little jabbing. I assume he considered his options and he determined that taking her body outside of the house was too risky or was not his best shot.
              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
              http://www.williambury.org

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                I am really just trying to find out what the norm is here and it seems to be that mainly they tend overwhelmingly to not be known (on record) wife abusers.
                Another thought: I think you're right that among the well-known serial killers the norm may well be that there is a good relationship with the partner. But what's important in assessing Bury is not how he compares to the well-known serial killers but how he compares to the serial killer population as a whole. Evidently there are enough serial killers who abuse their partners that this trait is specifically mentioned in connection with one of the types of serial killers. So if Bury is in this respect kind of an oddball within the serial killer population as a whole, he might nevertheless be "normal" within his subgroup.
                “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                http://www.williambury.org

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                  Another thought: I think you're right that among the well-known serial killers the norm may well be that there is a good relationship with the partner. But what's important in assessing Bury is not how he compares to the well-known serial killers but how he compares to the serial killer population as a whole. Evidently there are enough serial killers who abuse their partners that this trait is specifically mentioned in connection with one of the types of serial killers. So if Bury is in this respect kind of an oddball within the serial killer population as a whole, he might nevertheless be "normal" within his subgroup.
                  Hi Wyatt
                  Thanks for the response, but I disagree. I would go the other way. I think that the best way to go about assessing suspects like Bury, is to find other serial killers that are most similar (narrowing it down)to JtR and see if their background/experience matches up to the suspect you have in mind, such as Bury.

                  For example, a not very well known serial killer by the name of William Suff, the Riverside prostitute killer, had some of the most similar characteristics to JtR as any serial killer I've heard of: Victims were prostitutes, strangulation, knife used, post mortem mutilation, genitals/breast targeted, left displayed, body parts/trophies taken. He was married and there is nothing in his record that he abused physically his wife eventhough they eventually divorced.

                  I think its just a more accurate way to assess than working backward from a nebulous "profile" of characteristics. But thats just me. But again, i would not rule Bury out just on this-I think he is still a viable suspect. i just think it lessens his candidacy a tad.


                  BTW, could not help but notice your screen name and wonder-are you a fan of the history of the Old West?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    Hi Wyatt
                    Thanks for the response, but I disagree. I would go the other way. I think that the best way to go about assessing suspects like Bury, is to find other serial killers that are most similar (narrowing it down)to JtR and see if their background/experience matches up to the suspect you have in mind, such as Bury.

                    For example, a not very well known serial killer by the name of William Suff, the Riverside prostitute killer, had some of the most similar characteristics to JtR as any serial killer I've heard of: Victims were prostitutes, strangulation, knife used, post mortem mutilation, genitals/breast targeted, left displayed, body parts/trophies taken. He was married and there is nothing in his record that he abused physically his wife eventhough they eventually divorced.

                    I think its just a more accurate way to assess than working backward from a nebulous "profile" of characteristics. But thats just me. But again, i would not rule Bury out just on this-I think he is still a viable suspect. i just think it lessens his candidacy a tad.


                    BTW, could not help but notice your screen name and wonder-are you a fan of the history of the Old West?
                    Fair enough. Profiles are just guides, and are of limited value. I think it has to be expected that a given suspect will not match each and every element of one. The police of course do use profiles, so they must find them to be a useful tool in tracking down their quarry. I am not a special student of the Old West.
                    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                    http://www.williambury.org

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                      Fair enough. Profiles are just guides, and are of limited value. I think it has to be expected that a given suspect will not match each and every element of one. The police of course do use profiles, so they must find them to be a useful tool in tracking down their quarry. I am not a special student of the Old West.
                      Hi Wyatt
                      I agree-profiles have their place and can definitely help an investigation.

                      FYI-I just finished a great book called "Draw!" about famous gunfights/gunfighters of the Old West. I dont have it in front of me but if you are interested I can also get the authors name for you. Its very comprehensive, informative and fascinating as well as a cracking good read. highly recommended.
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        To Abby
                        I think the fact that Bury was abusive to his wife increases his chances of being the Ripper rather than lessens them.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          BMJ and University of Dundee

                          Hello all,

                          Another interesting little snippet herewith from the BMJ

                          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...082009/?page=6

                          best wishes

                          Phil
                          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                          Justice for the 96 = achieved
                          Accountability? ....

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                            To Abby
                            I think the fact that Bury was abusive to his wife increases his chances of being the Ripper rather than lessens them.
                            Well statistically, it increases his chances of being a murderer. He is violent with her, and so with others.

                            To be a serial murderer based on violence to his wife is a different ball of wax. Usually this evolves into the fact that he hates her and symbolically kills her by selecting victims that remind him of her. THIS WILL LAST UNTIL HE GETS THE COURAGE TO MURDER HER.

                            Looks wise, the C5 are all over the map. This could point to a murderer whose only criteria was the victim must be female and alone. There is no evidence that Catherine Eddows was soliciting at the time of her murder,for example, she was headed home having been released from jail. As she already stated she would get "a damn fine hiding" when she did arrive home, it is doubtful she would take time out to solicit, she would be hurrying home

                            Just a thought

                            Darkendale
                            And the questions always linger, no real answer in sight

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Another interesting little snippet herewith from the BMJ
                              Phil - Thanks for that, very interesting.

                              Comment

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