Interesting link

[johns]

Eileen

I got your email... I'm just off to Scotland for a wee break, so I'll get back to you when I'm done up there.

Back in Worcestershire now.

John

[John Wheat]

Bury is certainly one of the more likely suspects. He's either Jack the Ripper or a copycat killer.

[curious]

Bury is certainly one of the more likely suspects. He's either Jack the Ripper or a copycat killer.

One of the most interesting things about Bury, to me, is that he bought a cord to put around his wife's neck.

Now, I believe that all that was mentioned about JtR's victims were the slashed throats -- 2 slashes which might have concealed a cord and would explain the silence. But was the cord possibility ever mentioned in the press?

If not, how would Bury know to purchase a cord?

I have seen that possibility mentioned several times here on Casebook, but the fact that Bury used a cord on Ellen is very interesting to me.

[Wyatt Earp]

One of the most interesting things about Bury, to me, is that he bought a cord to put around his wife's neck.

Now, I believe that all that was mentioned about JtR's victims were the slashed throats -- 2 slashes which might have concealed a cord and would explain the silence. But was the cord possibility ever mentioned in the press?

If not, how would Bury know to purchase a cord?

I have seen that possibility mentioned several times here on Casebook, but the fact that Bury used a cord on Ellen is very interesting to me.

In Beadle's Jack the Ripper Unmasked (2009), there is this from the December 24 issue of the Star, "is it not possible that the deed of Clarke's Yard is a new revelation of his old methods--that in the other cases partial strangulation was first of all resorted to, and that when the victims were by this means rendered helpless, the knife was used in such a manner as to obliterate traces of the act?" (p.218). So if Bury was a copycat, he could indeed have gotten the idea from the press.

Another way of examining the copycat theory, however, is to take a look at Bury in the months preceding the Ripper murders, when he could not have been imitating anyone. Per Macpherson:

1. He associated with prostitutes and contracted venereal disease (p. 48)

2. On one occasion he assaulted his wife, who had been a prostitue, in the street. This was not a gentle shove--he punched her in the mouth (p. 47)

3. On another occasion he knelt on top of her and threatened her with a knife (p. 46)

4. He could be gone from home for a few days at a time, and be out and about in the early morning hours (e.g. 5:30 a.m.) (p. 50)

So Bury really does seem to have been on something of a trajectory toward becoming the Ripper prior to any of the murders.

[GregBaron]

Botched...

Hi all,

The thing about Bury I find hardest to square is the amateurish botched attempt at whacking his wife. It seems he could just get her on the street on a ruse and do her like he did the others to avoid detection. This speaks more of a copycat to me.

On another note, does anyone recommend the Beadle Book? Should I read it?

Thanks.


Greg

[Abby Normal]

He's plausible, inasmuch as he lived in the area at the right time, left the area at the right time, and was capable of murder. That puts him quite a long way ahead of several so-called "prime suspects" mentioned on this forum.

If it transpired that either (or both) McKenzie or Coles were Ripper murders, however, Bury would be comprehensively alibi'd by his own execution!I'm not sure where letter analysis gets us though. If it were proved that he wrote the Lusk letter, he could still be innocent of the murders; if it were proved that he didn't write it (or any other letter) he could still be guilty.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell
He's plausible, inasmuch as he lived in the area at the right time, left the area at the right time, and was capable of murder. That puts him quite a long way ahead of several so-called "prime suspects" mentioned on this forum.

I agree. Bury has always been an intriguing suspect for me. lately, however, one thing has bothered me about Bury being viable. What serial killer who was married or had a serious girlfriend was ever known or even on official record(police/court etc) of being physically, violently abusive to their partners*? BTK, ridgeway even Bundy for example were all seemingly normal and nice to there partners. To me it seems that this is all part of there personality/plan/Double life and Bury does not fit the bill then.

*(Of course this excludes killers like Chapman who's victims were his wives/girlfriends)

[curious]

Hi all,

The thing about Bury I find hardest to square is the amateurish botched attempt at whacking his wife. It seems he could just get her on the street on a ruse and do her like he did the others to avoid detection. This speaks more of a copycat to me.

On another note, does anyone recommend the Beadle Book? Should I read it?

Thanks.


Greg

The thing about Bury that I don't understand is why leave London?

Ellen's money was about gone, so if he intended to kill her, would it not have been easier to kill her and slide her body off the ferry than end up in the predicament he did.

JtR always had an escape. Bury left himself with none.

Ellen's murder seems so different in almost all ways that while Bury was my first favorite suspect, I'm not positive he's the right one.

But why leave London? According to the information I have read, he was the one who insisted on going, his wife did not want to.

[John Wheat]

What serial killer who was married or had a serious girlfriend was ever known or even on official record(police/court etc) of being physically, violently abusive to their partners*? [/B]BTK, ridgeway even Bundy for example were all seemingly normal and nice to there partners. To me it seems that this is all part of there personality/plan/Double life and Bury does not fit the bill then.

*(Of course this excludes killers like Chapman who's victims were his wives/girlfriends)[/QUOTE]

Reginald Christie's last victim was his wife I'm sure there are other serial killers where one victim was there wife or girlfriend and other serial killers who were abusive to there wife or girlfriend. Although none spring to mind. However every serial killer is different and I wouldn't rule Bury out purely on the fact that he was abusive to Ellen Bury.

[John Wheat]

It is also worth noting that the psychological of profile of the Ripper published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology in 1989 by William G Eckert suggested that the Ripper: Would be cruel and dominating towards women.

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi all,

The thing about Bury I find hardest to square is the amateurish botched attempt at whacking his wife. It seems he could just get her on the street on a ruse and do her like he did the others to avoid detection. This speaks more of a copycat to me.

On another note, does anyone recommend the Beadle Book? Should I read it?

That it took Bury days to decide on a course of action following the murder suggests to me that the murder, or at least the exact timing of the murder (if he had been planning it, as the purchase of the piece of rope might suggest), came as a surprise to him. Perhaps he was thrown into a fit of rage by something Ellen said or did, or perhaps she threatened to go to the police with something and he felt he had no choice but to kill her on the spot. The lack of a good exit strategy might then simply reflect an unanticipated murder (that he had not planned to kill Ellen is by the way something that Bury himself claimed in his letter of confession to Rev. Gough).

We laugh today at this suicide story that Bury cooked up and took to the police -- it really does seem like something out of Poe's "The Imp of the Perverse" -- but it was a different time, and we should keep in mind that he nearly got off the hook with that story (when the jury came back with its initial verdict, it seemed to give credence to the medical testimony for suicide by self-strangulation, which strictly speaking probably should have led to an acquittal).

I highly recommend the Beadle book (and the Macpherson book too). Beadle has a lot of good ideas, and he presents a lot of interesting and useful information. He is not however what I would describe as a cautious writer in his presentation of the material.

[Wyatt Earp]

But why leave London? According to the information I have read, he was the one who insisted on going, his wife did not want to.

Perhaps something happened in London that spooked him. If he didn't have a reason to go to Dundee, then perhaps he had a reason to leave London.

[Abby Normal]

What serial killer who was married or had a serious girlfriend was ever known or even on official record(police/court etc) of being physically, violently abusive to their partners*? [/B]BTK, ridgeway even Bundy for example were all seemingly normal and nice to there partners. To me it seems that this is all part of there personality/plan/Double life and Bury does not fit the bill then.

*(Of course this excludes killers like Chapman who's victims were his wives/girlfriends)

Reginald Christie's last victim was his wife I'm sure there are other serial killers where one victim was there wife or girlfriend and other serial killers who were abusive to there wife or girlfriend. Although none spring to mind. However every serial killer is different and I wouldn't rule Bury out purely on the fact that he was abusive to Ellen Bury.[/QUOTE]

Hi John
My point was that serial killers who have wives/serious girlfriends rarely(if ever) are known to be openly abusive and/or on record for violent behaviour toward their partners. Both Bury and Christie tried to cover up/hide the murder of there wives. Bury was known to be openly abusive to his wife, so goes against that tendancy that he was also a serial killer of women. Serial killers seem to supress this aspect in there everyday lives. Sorry if i was not clear.
But as you note-they are all different and i dont let this rule him out. I still think he is a viable candidate.

[GregBaron]

Horrible human...

That it took Bury days to decide on a course of action following the murder suggests to me that the murder, or at least the exact timing of the murder (if he had been planning it, as the purchase of the piece of rope might suggest), came as a surprise to him. Perhaps he was thrown into a fit of rage by something Ellen said or did, or perhaps she threatened to go to the police with something and he felt he had no choice but to kill her on the spot. The lack of a good exit strategy might then simply reflect an unanticipated murder (that he had not planned to kill Ellen is by the way something that Bury himself claimed in his letter of confession to Rev. Gough).

We laugh today at this suicide story that Bury cooked up and took to the police -- it really does seem like something out of Poe's "The Imp of the Perverse" -- but it was a different time, and we should keep in mind that he nearly got off the hook with that story (when the jury came back with its initial verdict, it seemed to give credence to the medical testimony for suicide by self-strangulation, which strictly speaking probably should have led to an acquittal).

I highly recommend the Beadle book (and the Macpherson book too). Beadle has a lot of good ideas, and he presents a lot of interesting and useful information. He is not however what I would describe as a cautious writer in his presentation of the material.

Thanks for the mini-review Wyatt Earp. Perhaps Bury left London because the police were closing in and yes, maybe he didn't plan to kill his wife but that's not the way it appears. Whatever the case it was a pitiful job. To go from MJK to what he did to his wife is also a major de-escalation. Just sayin...

This guy was a horrible human being but the ripper, I doubt it. I may read the Beadle book however...


Greg

[Wyatt Earp]

My point was that serial killers who have wives/serious girlfriends rarely(if ever) are known to be openly abusive and/or on record for violent behaviour toward their partners. Both Bury and Christie tried to cover up/hide the murder of there wives. Bury was known to be openly abusive to his wife, so goes against that tendancy that he was also a serial killer of women. Serial killers seem to supress this aspect in there everyday lives. Sorry if i was not clear.
But as you note-they are all different and i dont let this rule him out. I still think he is a viable candidate.

Abby, in The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations by Keppel and Birnes there is a profile of the "anger-retaliatory rape murderer" (their murders do not necessarily include rapes because some of them are unable to get an erection). When these guys have wives, "In the marriage, there has generally been a history of spousal abuse" (p. 157). These are also killers who are likely to take souvenirs or trinkets from their victims.

[Wyatt Earp]

To go from MJK to what he did to his wife is also a major de-escalation. Just sayin...

Greg, if Bury had put on an MJK-style show with Ellen's body, he would have announced to all of Britain that the Ripper was in Dundee. And who had just come to Dundee from the East End? The Burys. I'd suggest that a major de-escalation is exactly what you should expect from Bury since he was hoping to escape from his situation.