Bury's Neck

[Aethelwulf]

A new piece of research has been published on the Bury website and very intriguing it is too (http://williambury.org/blog6/2022/01...am-burys-neck/).

It turns out that Bury's 1884 police file records a cut on the right side of his neck as a noteworthy physical feature. It seems Bury made a great fuss about having his collar removed before his execution and Berry the hangman had to take it off him, and thought he would have hung on to it until the last. If Bury did carry a scar on his neck, this would be yet another potential point of correspondence between Bury and the FBI profile as: "he (the ripper) would be expected to have some type of physical abnormality. However, although not severe, he perceives this as being psychologically crippling”.

More interesting is the fact that Annie Farmer's attacker is noted as having a scar or abscess on the side of his neck. The author of the Bury website dismisses this link as it was stated that on Farmer's man the scar was on the left side. However, some reports give it as the back of the neck. Some reports say the man had a fair mustache (like Bury), others a dark mustache. My point is, is it totally beyond the realms of possibility that the the side of the neck the scar was on was uncertain. Someone could have misremembered or been confused. There was a fair old commotion associated with he Farmer attacker - a pursuit, punch thrown according to one witness, and a man being struck with a whip. I think it is possible. Note that most people dismiss Caroline Maxwell's stubborn statement as being mistaken about the day. Surely a mistake about which side of the neck a scar is on is feasible?

Not only does the description of the man fit with the other witnesses (he wore speckled grey trousers and neckerchief (Lawende's salt and pepper?) and hard felt)), it is a very good match for Bury. Not only in the general sense, but also in the specifics of carrying a whip (this attack was before Bury sold his horse and cart), being handy with his fists (allegedly punching one pursuer to fend him off), the man was a drinker and 'ill used' Farmer 12 months previous. 'Ill use' is the same term Ellen's sister used to tell Bury off for beating her sister up so badly she was bed ridden. 12 months previous would have been prior to Bury marrying Ellen.

''Do you know him?' and the woman answered 'I knew him about a twelvemonth ago. I drank in his company, and he made himself known to me this morning. He paid 8d for the bed and gave me 6d whilst in the room. I brought him in about 6.30, and when I was half-asleep I felt a knife cross my throat, which woke me up, and I screamed.' 'What has he done?' and she replied, 'He has cut my throat.' I asked for a light, and a woman brought a candle, for the room was very dark. I then saw that there were five or six wounds in the neck, which seemed to me to be gaping and at least 3in long. It was said that Dr Phillips stitched her throat in one report.

After the attack, a lot people got a good look at the attacker and police issued a detailed description carried by all the main papers. Shortly after, in early December, Bury sells his horse and cart and very likely abandoned Whitechapel.

Although there is no way to know for certain if the noteworthy cut turned to a scar, or even if the word 'cut' was in fact referencing a scar, Bury's seeming vanity about exposing his neck is certainly interesting and the possible link to Farmer is tantalising.

[Guest]

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

[Aethelwulf]

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

this was the first i had heard of the collar commotion - Bury website gives sources as: (8) “The Princes Street Murder.” Dundee Courier (25 Apr. 1889).

(9) Evans, Stewart P. Executioner: Chronicles of a Victorian Hangman. Stroud: History Press (2009): 241.

Pretty surprised how easily Mr Earp dismisses this Farmer link. Could easily be confusion, and whose left are we talking about? The attacker's actual left, or maybe the left side as viewed by a witness (i.e., attacker's right)?

Like you, done deal this was Bury - but did Lech's great Aunt Fanny not own the lodging house?

[jerryd]

Thanks for this, the Farmer incident was the only instance were a witness describes a distingishing feature on a potential ripper suspect.
Scar or abcess on the neck.
Annie Farmer was dimissed at the time, and still is now by most, but the description of the assaliant and this feature was widley published.

People dont cut there own throats for a few coins, I am of the view that it was Bury and it was the main cause he moves out of London.

I suspected it before, as you know, becuase of this strange incident with the neckerchief, this report Mr Earp dug up seals the deal for me.

Can you upload Berry's actual description of this incident prior to the hanging, I read it years ago and cant remember where. But no worries if you dont have to hand.

Hi Wiggins and Aethulwulf.

If the following description was given to you, would it fit Farmer's suspect and most of the other victims for that matter?

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wiggins and Aethulwulf.

If the following description was given to you, would it fit Farmer's suspect and most of the other victims for that matter?

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

Not really. This chap (Cleary is it?) sounds like a down and out that can't walk properly. Farmer's attacker and other witness statements usually imply someone respectably dressed. Farmer's attacker also out paced a pursuit and vanished. Not of the witnesses say the man had a spot/boil on his cheek.

[Guest]

Thanks, for me the nature of the mutilations to Ellen Bury along with the proximity and circumstances around Burys movements at these times.
They are enough to convince me he was the ripper.
This is mainly because of Keppel's anylasis JTR's signature, when he was asked to look at Tabram case. And Steve Earp does a great job of explaining this on his website how Keppel showed who rare this is.
Ellen should be listed as the C6th ripper victim on this website, there is no question and I wonder why she is not to be honest.

All this other stuff about Bury is gist to the mill. I love discussing it. I want to start a new thread about chalk graffiti, from going through the newspapers its all over the place not just the GSG there is another 4 instances of chalk graffiti,

But in any case on topic here
1) the only instance where a witness calls out a distingishing mark on a potential ripper suspect = (scar on the neck) = Bury (Annie Farmer)
2) the only instance where a witness calls out a name is mentioned of a potential ripper suspect - Bill (William) = Bury ( Rose Mylett)

Wulf - yes Bury did dress smart but he got pretty shabby quickly rough sleeping in the back of his cart with all the sawdust on his jaunts into whitechapel.
We know he slept rough on kitchen floors and in stables before he met Ellen.

[Guest]

BTW Everyone thought Annie Farmer was a liar and a fraud who tried to steal money from a client.
Thats what they thought then, shortly after the event. And thats what they still think today.

But actually no, in my opinion she was a hero, because she fought off Jack the Ripper.

[Aethelwulf]

Thanks, for me the nature of the mutilations to Ellen Bury along with the proximity and circumstances around Burys movements at these times.
They are enough to convince me he was the ripper.
This is mainly because of Keppel's anylasis JTR's signature, when he was asked to look at Tabram case. And Steve Earp does a great job of explaining this on his website how Keppel showed who rare this is.
Ellen should be listed as the C6th ripper victim on this website, there is no question and I wonder why she is not to be honest.

All this other stuff about Bury is gist to the mill. I love discussing it. I want to start a new thread about chalk graffiti, from going through the newspapers its all over the place not just the GSG there is another 4 instances of chalk graffiti,

But in any case on topic here
1) the only instance where a witness calls out a distingishing mark on a potential ripper suspect = (scar on the neck) = Bury (Annie Farmer)
2) the only instance where a witness calls out a name is mentioned of a potential ripper suspect - Bill (William) = Bury ( Rose Mylett)

Wulf - yes Bury did dress smart but he got pretty shabby quickly rough sleeping in the back of his cart with all the sawdust on his jaunts into whitechapel.
We know he slept rough on kitchen floors and in stables before he met Ellen.

Great post Wiggins. Makes me laugh what people spend ages discussing on here when the answer is staring everyone in the face. Like that thread on the go about Tabram - apparently she was killed by a blind, vicious wood turner - being the latest theory (my new favourite!). Shame there isn't a suspect that hit a woman around the head, strangled her then attacked with a penknife....

I think the Farmer attack makes a lot of sense. If you think about the break in October, that was due, I am sure, to the outrage and huge police presence after the double event (not Lech's hypothesized near fatal illness). Bury must have known the chances of keeping on with what he was doing and not being caught were very slim, hence the targeting of a victim indoors. Following Kelly, he had the same problem and now the extra problem of finding another woman with a private room willing to take a stranger back. Answer, approach an old acquaintance that knew he was probably a bad lot but nothing else. Now an even bigger problem - a survivor and witnesses who could ID him in the heart of his hunting ground. The next answer, find a new location closer to home but not too close...

So we have:

Wilson - I'd be pure gobsmakced if that wasn't Bury
Tabram - Same MO as Ellen
Eddowes - Very specific and identical injuries on Ellen (plus those curious similarities with Bury's handwriting and from hell)
Farmer - Thank you Mr Earp!

I also wonder about Emma Smith and the date compared to bury's wedding night. was that long slim implement the handle of the whip he had on him with farmer i wonder?

The other thing I wonder about Farmer - puts a new light on Maxwell and the Kelly ToD

[Guest]

Thanks Wulf - we know that after the double event the bigwigs came down hard on the Commissioner and soon after the district was flooded with police from neighbouring constabularies, (like Ealing ). Obviously the crimes moved inside, they had to. He saw he had no choice the place was crawling with police and vigilantes, (Lusk’s lot) and he wasn’t stupid. Even the people writing fake JTR postcards to Openshaw complained about almost being caught. Also it was getting colder.

Regards your point about Farmer being an old acquaintance. ‘’I knew him twelve months ago and he ill used me then’’ Do you think it possible that all this was about revenge for the STD he got in April. Its well known STD triggers serial killers seeking revenge for this. And one of them in London no less?

Regards Burys Wedding night it was quite possible they all went together back that way and started drinking, and Ellen was with him, along with their other friends, but then things got out of hand, and groups split up, as they often do - we know. I wouldn’t necessarily have said that Bury and Ellen had big falling out. In my opinion they all went on a pub crawl when they got near home and separated in the night. And then Bury being Bury, being who he was, then went on a murderous rampage

[Aethelwulf]

2) the only instance where a witness calls out a name is mentioned of a potential ripper suspect - Bill (William) = Bury ( Rose Mylett)

I have read this before somewhere but can't find it - what are the details?

Also spotted this in the Daily News 22 Dec after the Mylett murder - but can't find the source. Not sure it is relevant either as Dalston seems to be about 4 miles NW of Bow: 'Some colour is given to the suggestion that "Jack the Ripper" has adopted a new style of assassination by a complaint recently made at Dalston Police court by a woman that a man had attempted to strangle her in a in a somewhat similar manner.'

[Aethelwulf]

I want to start a new thread about chalk graffiti, from going through the newspapers its all over the place not just the GSG there is another 4 instances of chalk graffiti,

I'm intrigued by this. Had a quick search and this jumped out at me from the Evening News 29th Oct (same date as our friend Ealing):

MORE WRITING ON A WALL.
It is stated that the words, "I shall do another murder and will receive her heart," have been found written in chalk on the footway in Camplin-street, Deptford.

Reference to her heart prior to Kelly is interesting but a fair way out from Whitechapel (4 miles) and Bow (6 miles). On his cart though..

[Guest]

This was that reference to a Bill you asked for.

Wickerman sent me this on another thread, which for me colloborates the young girls statement.

A man named Charles Ptolomey, who is a lunatic attendant at the Poplar Union, has come forward and made a statement to the effect that he saw the deceased on the night of her death near Clarke's yard, having an altercation with two men who appeared to be sailors. This bears out the assertion of the woman Alice Graves, who said she saw the woman walking along in a very intoxicated condition arm in arm with two men dressed as seamen. This is practically the only clue, if such it can be called, that the police have.
Daily News, 28 Dec. 1888.


Inspector Swanson, Inspector Wildey, and the Criminal Investigation officers under their guidance are working energetically to elucidate the mystery, and another statement has afforded the detective officers with an additional clue. It appears that Charles Ptomoley, an attendant at the Poplar Union, was proceeding to the workhouse last Wednesday night week when he saw two sailors having an altercation with the deceased woman, who was heard strenuouslv to decline their overtures to accompany them. They were then at the corner of England-row, within sight of Clarke's-yard. Ptomoley has given the police authorities a full description of the men's appearance, and says that, though in other respects they were dressed as seamen, one had a fur cap, drawn partly over his face, while the other wore a round black hat. This statement has been verified, for the two men described by the attendant were seen by others in the district, and it also confirms the assertion of Alice Graves, who knew the deceased well, and who states that she saw the unfortunate woman walking along early on the morning of the tragedy with two men dressed as sailors.
Daily Chronicle, 28 Dec. 1888.


Mr. Charles Ptolomey, whose name was mentioned in our columns yesterday, as having seen two seamen accost the woman near where she was discovered dead, has received a visit from some officers of Scotland yard. Mr. Ptolomey, who is a night attendant at the Poplar Union, made the following statement to a reporter, yesterday:

"last night some detectives from Scotland Yard came to see me about this mysterious affair. They asked me if I could identify the sailors? I told them I could pick the men out of a thousand. How I came to notice them was in this way: It was about five minutes to eight o'clock on Wednesday night, when I was going to my work. Upon going up England row (nearly opposite Clarke's yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose, and that was the reason I took so much notice of their movements. I shall always remember their faces, and could, as I say, pick them out of a thousand. I have been to the mortuary, and seen the deceased. She is the same woman, and she was sober when I saw her with the sailors."
Evening News, 29 Dec. 1888.


Now a possible suspect has a tall friend with him again - shades Stride and the pipe smoker, and Tabram (this time they dress as soliders).
Speculative, but it may have been a duo.
Ellen did say Will had some bad company in London (or something to this effect), to one her new neighbours in Dundee.
And Bury mentioned to Walker that he missed his old pals. (or simular to that)

[Abby Normal]

so bury was the ripper and dressed as a soldier and a sailor AND had an accomplice?

[Mark J D]

so bury was the ripper and dressed as a soldier and a sailor AND had an accomplice?

Stated in that way, mon brave, it is indeed ridiculous. But to you, and to the other adults in the room, I would shyly say that, to my mind, the stinking human sore that was Bury is very likely to appear in more than one place within the criminal timeline of c.1888 Whitechapel. No, he's not the Ripper/Torso killer -- because he's an out-of-control violent drunk in a state of accelerating mental collapse, and *the Ripper/Torso killer isn't* -- but, yes, he was there and hurting people in ways that made it into the records.

M.

[Aethelwulf]

This was that reference to a Bill you asked for.

Wickerman sent me this on another thread, which for me colloborates the young girls statement.

A man named Charles Ptolomey, who is a lunatic attendant at the Poplar Union, has come forward and made a statement to the effect that he saw the deceased on the night of her death near Clarke's yard, having an altercation with two men who appeared to be sailors. This bears out the assertion of the woman Alice Graves, who said she saw the woman walking along in a very intoxicated condition arm in arm with two men dressed as seamen. This is practically the only clue, if such it can be called, that the police have.
Daily News, 28 Dec. 1888.


Inspector Swanson, Inspector Wildey, and the Criminal Investigation officers under their guidance are working energetically to elucidate the mystery, and another statement has afforded the detective officers with an additional clue. It appears that Charles Ptomoley, an attendant at the Poplar Union, was proceeding to the workhouse last Wednesday night week when he saw two sailors having an altercation with the deceased woman, who was heard strenuouslv to decline their overtures to accompany them. They were then at the corner of England-row, within sight of Clarke's-yard. Ptomoley has given the police authorities a full description of the men's appearance, and says that, though in other respects they were dressed as seamen, one had a fur cap, drawn partly over his face, while the other wore a round black hat. This statement has been verified, for the two men described by the attendant were seen by others in the district, and it also confirms the assertion of Alice Graves, who knew the deceased well, and who states that she saw the unfortunate woman walking along early on the morning of the tragedy with two men dressed as sailors.
Daily Chronicle, 28 Dec. 1888.


Mr. Charles Ptolomey, whose name was mentioned in our columns yesterday, as having seen two seamen accost the woman near where she was discovered dead, has received a visit from some officers of Scotland yard. Mr. Ptolomey, who is a night attendant at the Poplar Union, made the following statement to a reporter, yesterday:

"last night some detectives from Scotland Yard came to see me about this mysterious affair. They asked me if I could identify the sailors? I told them I could pick the men out of a thousand. How I came to notice them was in this way: It was about five minutes to eight o'clock on Wednesday night, when I was going to my work. Upon going up England row (nearly opposite Clarke's yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times "No! no! no!" and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5ft 11in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about 5ft 7in. It struck me that they were there for no purpose, and that was the reason I took so much notice of their movements. I shall always remember their faces, and could, as I say, pick them out of a thousand. I have been to the mortuary, and seen the deceased. She is the same woman, and she was sober when I saw her with the sailors."
Evening News, 29 Dec. 1888.


Now a possible suspect has a tall friend with him again - shades Stride and the pipe smoker, and Tabram (this time they dress as soliders).
Speculative, but it may have been a duo.
Ellen did say Will had some bad company in London (or something to this effect), to one her new neighbours in Dundee.
And Bury mentioned to Walker that he missed his old pals. (or simular to that)

The problem with both Mylett and Tabram there is a fair chunk of time unaccounted for. I'm perfectly satisfied it was Bury and his penknife/ same MO as Ellen that accounted for Tabram.

As for Mylett, I'm deeply suspicious of a likely scenario where Bury has sold his means of transport in and out of Whitechapel, and then the next victim talked of as a possible ripper victim is found easy walking distance from Bury's home and strangled with a cord, same as Ellen. Why no knife wounds, who knows. Perhaps it was a conscious decision. I believe the detective in charge of that case was based in Bow - perhaps it was too close. If a full blown ripper murder took place well away from Whitechapel, someone would inevitably ask the obvious question - what if he doesn't actually live there and is travelling in and out? As I said somewhere else, there is no way Elizabeth Haynes, the landlady, would have kept the story of Bury kneeling on his new bride and threatening her with a knife, to herself. Ask too many questions and police might just have found their way to Spanby Road.

One thing - how certain are we these two were sailors? Think about Lawende's man, certainly the ripper, only described as a sailor because of the neckerchief I believe. What if it was a similar outfit. Also, looking at old Poplar pubs, there were three called 'Ship', one on the high street, and numerous others with ship in their name that could easily have been shortened to ship. Perhaps the ship reference was just talking about going to get lashed - would fit Bury.