Bury's Neck

[Aethelwulf]

Stated in that way, mon brave, it is indeed ridiculous. But to you, and to the other adults in the room, I would shyly say that, to my mind, the stinking human sore that was Bury is very likely to appear in more than one place within the criminal timeline of c.1888 Whitechapel. No, he's not the Ripper/Torso killer -- because he's an out-of-control violent drunk in a state of accelerating mental collapse, and *the Ripper/Torso killer isn't* -- but, yes, he was there and hurting people in ways that made it into the records.

M.

I see the Lech Panto is still on then.

Let us list his crimes:

1...?
2...?
3...?
4...?
5...?

[John Wheat]

I see the Lech Panto is still on then.

Let us list his crimes:

1...?
2...?
3...?
4...?
5...?

No Aethelwulf you are wrong Lechmere killed all the Ripper and Torso Victims on his way to work. In the case of the Torso Victims dumping body parts as he went.

[Aethelwulf]

No Aethelwulf you are wrong Lechmere killed all the Ripper and Torso Victims on his way to work. In the case of the Torso Victims dumping body parts as he went.

You know, there is another side to this new info that I believe nails Bury for Farmer - he picked her up at 6.30 and the attack was about 9/9.30. 21st Nov 1888 was a Wednesday. It would have been impossible for lechmere to do this. Ironically, the one suspect who seems to have almost certainly had a horse or horse and cart nearby is never mentioned by the Lechers - because the time frame kills that theory stone dead. Of course, he may have had the morning off....

[Mark J D]

You know, there is another side to this new info that I believe nails Bury for Farmer - he picked her up at 6.30 and the attack was about 9/9.30. 21st Nov 1888 was a Wednesday. It would have been impossible for lechmere to do this. Ironically, the one suspect who seems to have almost certainly had a horse or horse and cart nearby is never mentioned by the Lechers - because the time frame kills that theory stone dead. Of course, he may have had the morning off....

Who are the people desperate to attribute the attack on Farmer to Lechmere? Nothing about it suits the picture we have of him, least of all the details of the attack itself:

"She had received a superficial cut to her throat. Although an unknown man with blood on his mouth and hands had run out of this lodging house, shouting, "Look at what she has done!" before two eyewitnesses heard Farmer scream,^[109] her wound was light, and possibly self-inflicted^[110][111]"

Annie Farmer - Jack the Ripper Wiki (casebook.org)

M.

[Guest]

I'm glad you bought this thread back to Farmer and Burys neck, but I would like to defend myself a little.

On the subject of the accomplices, I do find these sitings of two men suspicious, Tabram and Myletts were multiply attested. The police at the time took them seriously, and they never did find them. No I don't think it's ridiculous at all to think people are capable of deception, such things are easably obtaonable and there are many cases of murderous duos. I do get a sinister feeling around the Rose Mylett statements in particular I copied above.
We are allowed to keep an open mind?
that said agree it is speculative but I enjoy discussing it, without being called as non adult which is just silly.

On firmer ground I don't think Farmer cut her own throat, some reports said her wound was gaping.

[Aethelwulf]

Who are the people desperate to attribute the attack on Farmer to Lechmere? Nothing about it suits the picture we have of him, least of all the details of the attack itself:

"She had received a superficial cut to her throat. Although an unknown man with blood on his mouth and hands had run out of this lodging house, shouting, "Look at what she has done!" before two eyewitnesses heard Farmer scream,^[109] her wound was light, and possibly self-inflicted^[110][111]"

Annie Farmer - Jack the Ripper Wiki (casebook.org)

M.

I would suggest going through the press reports (there are a lot of them for this attack) as they give far more detail. The statements of Farmer and witnesses paint a very different picture:

'Do you know him?' and the woman answered 'I knew him about a twelvemonth ago. I drank in his company, and he made himself known to me this morning. He paid 8d for the bed and gave me 6d whilst in the room. I brought him in about 6.30, and when I was half-asleep I felt a knife cross my throat, which woke me up, and I screamed.' 'What has he done?' and she replied, 'He has cut my throat.' I asked for a light, and a woman brought a candle, for the room was very dark. I then saw that there were five or six wounds in the neck, which seemed to me to be gaping and at least 3in long. It was said that Dr Phillips dressed her throat in one report.

No one cuts their own throat to the point it needs dressing and going to hospital for 8 pence. The 'self inflected' wound sounds like the mylett 'self-strangulation on a stiff collar' rubbish. As wiggins said, the first hand witness reports say the wound was gaping. I would suggest the reason for the failed attack compared to kelly are:

• kelly had been on her feet all day, variously drunk and was probably bone tired when she went to bed. although she may have woken to get a scream out, it wasn't enough. At 4 am it is likely few people heard and no one would bother to follow up.
• Farmer seems to have been wandering all night but doesn't sound drunk, hence Bury trying to get her drunk first, but even then, in her own words, she wasn't fully asleep when she felt the knife. Screams at 9.30 am compared to 4 am meant there was no option but to flee or be caught indoors.

If this attack took place around 3.30 am or 5-6 am, those that suspect Lech would be all over it like a cheap aftershave.

[Mark J D]

If this attack took place around 3.30 am or 5-6 am, those that suspect Lech would be all over it like a cheap aftershave.

I think not, to be honest.

M.

[Aethelwulf]

I'm glad you bought this thread back to Farmer and Burys neck, but I would like to defend myself a little.

On the subject of the accomplices, I do find these sitings of two men suspicious, Tabram and Myletts were multiply attested. The police at the time took them seriously, and they never did find them. No I don't think it's ridiculous at all to think people are capable of deception, such things are easably obtaonable and there are many cases of murderous duos. I do get a sinister feeling around the Rose Mylett statements in particular I copied above.
We are allowed to keep an open mind?
that said agree it is speculative but I enjoy discussing it, without being called as non adult which is just silly.

On firmer ground I don't think Farmer cut her own throat, some reports said her wound was gaping.

worth a speculation. What I don't get, if I have understood this, is that the 'bill' 'catch the ship' reference seems to be at 7.55 pm. If they were catching an actual ship, what are these two doing back in the early hours (if it is the same two)? Were they actually speaking figuratively about catching one of the three ships (pub) for a booze up? I also notice one of the farmer descriptions gives the man as a sailor - i genuinely think this could be a case of the soft grey jacket, peaked cap, neck tie sailor i.e., lawende's man. Although for farmer it could just be Bury's neck tie hiding the scar that gives the sailorly impression as it was said the man had a dark coat and felt hat

Not taken on the accomplice theory. I can imagine Bury would have been out with a fellow bad egg and roughed a woman up and then gone back on his own later. I just can't see an accomplice keeping a secret like that. Overall, as there is a good chunk of missing time for Tabram and Mylett, the 'sailors' & 'soldiers' may well have nothing to do with either case.

[Abby Normal]

I'm glad you bought this thread back to Farmer and Burys neck, but I would like to defend myself a little.

On the subject of the accomplices, I do find these sitings of two men suspicious, Tabram and Myletts were multiply attested. The police at the time took them seriously, and they never did find them. No I don't think it's ridiculous at all to think people are capable of deception, such things are easably obtaonable and there are many cases of murderous duos. I do get a sinister feeling around the Rose Mylett statements in particular I copied above.
We are allowed to keep an open mind?
that said agree it is speculative but I enjoy discussing it, without being called as non adult which is just silly.

On firmer ground I don't think Farmer cut her own throat, some reports said her wound was gaping.

hi wiggins
I view bury as a valid a suspect as any, and indeed more than most. But i just dont think there is enough there to conclude farmer, or mylet for that matter, as ripper victims-I only have them both at about a 20% possibility. sounds to me that farmer was stealing from the man which caused (from either herself or him) the "cut" neck.
of course both could have run a foul of the ripper, i just dont see it as likely.

[Guest]

'bill' 'catch the ship' reference seems to be at 7.55 pm

I read this as being a short time before the body is discovered - they were in a hurry along high street near the scene, i reread it. Where did you get this time from lol maybe i missed something, i probably did to be fair.

Not taken on the accomplice theory. I can imagine Bury would have been out with a fellow bad egg

Im not either, i put forward for people thoughts, but not sold on it.
but this description of these two men matches closly that given by Israel Schwartz and strengthens both.
I did think that Schwartz made up this second man the pipeman to make himself seem less cowardly running from the scene of a JTR murder. But now im not so sure.
Yes we have this verified from Ellen, who told her neighbour he kept bad company and was staying out late - this is buried in the trial notes somewhere along with Burys comment that he misses his friends in London.

Problem with being speculative is that people really want their suspects to be viable but flights of fancy diminish the other aspects of their case which are good.
Like Beagles second book where he goes into his theory of the horse connection, the other stuff on Bury is very good, but this argument diminshes his overall case.
That might explain why Earp is being cautious on the neck scar. He dosent need it, so he dismisses it.

But for me I dont mind so much, we know a much of Burys movements more than most, but there is a great deal we dont. And because of the timings and circumstances, which you described well above, Rose Mylett is a prime candiate for a victim of Bury.

But the problem is if you look at Mylett, you're looking at two men involved. It is rare but it is by no means unheard of.
And when they happen they get up to all manner of wicked schemes.

[Guest]

Also spotted this in the Daily News 22 Dec after the Mylett murder - but can't find the source. Not sure it is relevant either as Dalston seems to be about 4 miles NW of Bow: 'Some colour is given to the suggestion that "Jack the Ripper" has adopted a new style of assassination by a complaint recently made at Dalston Police court by a woman that a man had attempted to strangle her in a in a somewhat similar manner.'

I had a quick look is this related to this do you think?

[Aethelwulf]

I had a quick look is this related to this do you think?

Doesn't sound like the same event to me.

On the Mylett times, ignore what I said, I just got the two statements mixed up.

Interested to see what else you've got on the other chalk graffiti. I thought the wording of that 'receive her heart' message sounded a bit creepy, especially before the Kelly murder, although perhaps just a coincidence that it was found on 29th Oct (although could have been written before that). He did go missing for days at a time - who knows where he went off to on his horse and cart.

[Guest]

Yeah I kept coming across reports of people/ someone doing this as I was trawling through newspapers over the period, some of it quite sinister, threatening witnesses etc I got a few days off I try to fish them out and put altogether on here

[Aethelwulf]

hi wiggins
I view bury as a valid a suspect as any, and indeed more than most. But i just dont think there is enough there to conclude farmer, or mylet for that matter, as ripper victims-I only have them both at about a 20% possibility. sounds to me that farmer was stealing from the man which caused (from either herself or him) the "cut" neck.
of course both could have run a foul of the ripper, i just dont see it as likely.

I'd say i'm 55-45 in favour of Mylett. Anyone that harbours any suspicion against Bury should be raising an eyebrow at a potential ripper victim turning up relatively close to Bury's home and strangled with a cord like his wife, after he has sold his cart and probably not bothering with Whitechapel.

As for Farmer, Earp's bit of info on this convinces me it was Bury. The physical description, whip, abusive relationship, drinker, scar and necktie. Reading the reports the self inflicted bit sounds like pure guesswork and no one will convince me a gaping cut throat is worth pennies. I suspect the pennies in the mouth was just the money he gave her as an inducement (from his ready stash like that found in dundee?) and didn't want to give up. I also think the method she describes could be what he did with Kelly. She said she got into bed but the man stayed up and sometime later she felt the knife on her throat. Perhaps there was no light in there and he was groping a bit whereas Kelly seems to have had a fire that may have been alight already.

[Guest]

On Farmer the notion she would cut her own throat for a few coins is simply ridiculous. All the witness statements attest this was attempted murder. In the epicenter and at the height of the ripper crimes with the archetype victim profile.

we know now that victims sometimes do fend off their attackers so there's no excuse.