Medical evidence Ellen Bury murder

[The Baron]

The fact that she was 7-8 months pregnant is devastating on many aspects

Would a 7-8 months pregnant woman go prostituting ?!


I doubt it very much.


The Baron

[Fisherman]

Bloody huge dissimilarity.

I understand that she could have been a ripper victim, but setting a case depending on this very 7-8 months pregnant victim is not convincing.


The Baron

The fact remains that she had her uterus taken out. The type of killer who takes out uteri from women is rare in the extreme. We can of course tart hypothesizing about the underlying psychological reasons for taking the uteri out from Chapman and Jackson, respectively, but as I pointed out before we will be entering speculation country at that stage. And it is not a healthy place to be when looking at these matters.

It is furthermore not as if it is "only" about the uterus, is it? Both women had their abdomonal walls cut away in large flaps - a pretty hefty coincidence f it was two killers, seeing as it is a trait that is rarer than hen´s teeth. It more or less never happens.

But in Victorian London, two men engaged in this practice? In the same time period? And it just so happened that both victims were prostitutes? And lo and behold, both of them had their rings stolen and wrenched from their fingers - completely by chance?

If we suggest two killers for these women, we are suggesting the larget coincidence in criminal history. I won´t go there, I can say that much. It would be folly.

[The Baron]

Bloody huge dissimilarity.

I understand that she could have been a ripper victim, but setting a case depending on this very 7-8 months pregnant victim is not convincing.


The Baron

[Fisherman]

Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


The Baron

And...?

[Fisherman]

Elizabeth Jackson was the only Thames Torso victim whose uterus was clearly excised, correct?

Yes, that is correct.

[Harry D]

Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


The Baron

Elizabeth Jackson was the only Thames Torso victim whose uterus was clearly excised, correct?

[The Baron]

Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


The Baron

[Fisherman]

As I see it, MacKenzie's murder is the biggest challenge to the Bury was the Ripper saga.



The Baron

I don´t agree, I´m afraid, although I think the best bet we have is that MacKenzie WAS a Ripper victim. When we have a killer running around in an area, cutting women´s bellies open, that is and remains our best guess.

But to me, it applies that what I find is a near certainty that Jackson and Chapman were killed by the same hand is the main obstacle for Bury as the Ripper.

Any which way, Bury can and must be looked upon as a not very likely Ripper.

[The Baron]

As I see it, MacKenzie's murder is the biggest challenge to the Bury was the Ripper saga.



The Baron

[Fisherman]

When was the last time Elisabeth Jackson seen alive ?


The Baron

The medicos agreed that Jackson probably died on any of the two first days of June 1889. Jacksons sister met and spoke to her some little time before she was killed, but I don´t know if the date is established.

[The Baron]

I read now that she went missing at the end of May, that rules out Bury as the killer.

[The Baron]

When was the last time Elisabeth Jackson seen alive ?


The Baron

[Fisherman]

Even if there were no similarities at all between Chapman' murder and Jackson's, if Jack was alive and free, he must be considered a prime suspect in the torso's murders, and his whereabout during the time must be well established.


But, I don't see in the Jackson's murder the signs of a sexually driven insane mutilator, as I see in the case of Ellen.

It is as if Jack the Ripper has left his signature on the body of the poor Ellen.

And the similarities you've mentioned can have other explanations, and that Jackson was pregnant is only one of many things that come to mind.


The Baron

Isn´t that a tad comfortable, though? "The similarities you´ve mentioned can have other explanations"? As if your idea that Ellen Bury´s wounds were of a sexual nature could not have other explanations...?

Just how likely is it that there were two men who cut away abdominal walls in large flaps, took out uteri and stole rings from their victims´ fingers in the same town and time? You will struggle to find another sexual serial killer in the annals of crime who did these things. I have never managed to do it, and I have read up on a fair few of these predators.

At the end of the day, the one and only thing there is to go by is proven similarities. Trying to explain them away by saying that there could be alternative explanations will not work. The odds against it are absolutely staggering. And the proven similarities between Jackson and Chapman are many and in some instances incredibly rare. Therefore, these two cases are the ones most likely to be connected. By a country mile, actually.

Just as you say, the Ripper must be regarded a prime suspect in the Thames Torso murders. And that means that Bury is ruled out if he was, because Bury was long dead when the Pinchin Street victim died. I only posted this because you asked how anybody could counter the argument that Bury was the Ripper. This is how it is done.

I commend you on the approach of comparing the damage done to the victims. I am less enthusiastic about your choosing to prioritize your own take on the respective psychologies of the cases over the simple facts. If anything, peoples efforts to use psychological assumptions to solve the case have proven very unfruitful over the years. It is easy enough to establish that a uterus has been cut out, but much harder to say WHY it was done. One of the factors is prime evidence, the other is mere speculation.

[The Baron]

Even if there were no similarities at all between Chapman' murder and Jackson's, if Jack was alive and free, he must be considered a prime suspect in the torso's murders, and his whereabout during the time must be well established.


But, I don't see in the Jackson's murder the signs of a sexually driven insane mutilator, as I see in the case of Ellen.

It is as if Jack the Ripper has left his signature on the body of the poor Ellen.

And the similarities you've mentioned can have other explanations, and that Jackson was pregnant is only one of many things that come to mind.


The Baron

[Fisherman]

But as I told you, although there is a superficial likeness inbetween Elln Bury and the archetypical Ripper victim, there are more similarities between Liz Jackson and Annie Chapman - plus the similarities are of a much rarer kind. Both were evisceration murders, whereas Ellen Bury was not an evisceration murder. Both involved the taking out of the uterus and both involved the cutting away of the abdominal wall in large flaps with subcutaneous tissue attaching. Moreover, in both cases, there were rings stolen from the victims´ fingers.

If we are to work from similarities when looking for the killer, then why not look for the two cases with the most far-reaching and rarest similarities? Even if they completely and decisively rule Bury out as the killer?