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Medical evidence Ellen Bury murder

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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Baron View Post

    how can anyone counter the argument that Bury Was Jack the Ripper?!

    The Baron
    -Annie Chapman and Liz Jackson both had their abdomens opened up from pubes to ribs

    -they both had their abdominal walls cut away in large flaps of skin with subcutaneous tissue attaching

    -they both had their uteri removed

    -they both had rings stolen from their fingers

    -they were both killed in the same town

    -they were killed nine months only apart

    -they were both prostitutes

    -they both had ther throats cut to the bone with a knife

    These two victims are much closer and have more similarities, some of them very rare, than Ellen Bury and any of the C5.

    Liz Jackson was one of a series of four, where there can be no real doubt that the killer was one and the same.

    The last of these four victims was killed in September 1889. At that stage in time, Bury was long since dead.

    And that´s how anyone can counter the argument that William Henry Bury was Jack the Ripper.

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    • #17

      From the lower end of the wound opening into the abdomen, on the left side were several superficial cuts little more than penetrating the cuticle, and running down to the pubis.

      Running downwards from the centre of the pubis to the outer side of the left labium was an incised wound 2 ½ inches in length penetrating the skin and fat.

      On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length penetrating the skin.

      Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle.




      Bury's guilt believer have a convicted sexualy insane murderer and a proven sexual mutilator, who was not far from Whitechapel during the crimes and who left there shortly after Kelly's murder, two chalk messages were left behind at his place hinting to Jack the Ripper.


      I find Bury extraordinary suspicious.


      The Baron

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      • #18
        But as I told you, although there is a superficial likeness inbetween Elln Bury and the archetypical Ripper victim, there are more similarities between Liz Jackson and Annie Chapman - plus the similarities are of a much rarer kind. Both were evisceration murders, whereas Ellen Bury was not an evisceration murder. Both involved the taking out of the uterus and both involved the cutting away of the abdominal wall in large flaps with subcutaneous tissue attaching. Moreover, in both cases, there were rings stolen from the victims´ fingers.

        If we are to work from similarities when looking for the killer, then why not look for the two cases with the most far-reaching and rarest similarities? Even if they completely and decisively rule Bury out as the killer?

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        • #19
          Even if there were no similarities at all between Chapman' murder and Jackson's, if Jack was alive and free, he must be considered a prime suspect in the torso's murders, and his whereabout during the time must be well established.


          But, I don't see in the Jackson's murder the signs of a sexually driven insane mutilator, as I see in the case of Ellen.

          It is as if Jack the Ripper has left his signature on the body of the poor Ellen.

          And the similarities you've mentioned can have other explanations, and that Jackson was pregnant is only one of many things that come to mind.


          The Baron

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          • #20
            Originally posted by The Baron View Post
            Even if there were no similarities at all between Chapman' murder and Jackson's, if Jack was alive and free, he must be considered a prime suspect in the torso's murders, and his whereabout during the time must be well established.


            But, I don't see in the Jackson's murder the signs of a sexually driven insane mutilator, as I see in the case of Ellen.

            It is as if Jack the Ripper has left his signature on the body of the poor Ellen.

            And the similarities you've mentioned can have other explanations, and that Jackson was pregnant is only one of many things that come to mind.


            The Baron
            Isn´t that a tad comfortable, though? "The similarities you´ve mentioned can have other explanations"? As if your idea that Ellen Bury´s wounds were of a sexual nature could not have other explanations...?

            Just how likely is it that there were two men who cut away abdominal walls in large flaps, took out uteri and stole rings from their victims´ fingers in the same town and time? You will struggle to find another sexual serial killer in the annals of crime who did these things. I have never managed to do it, and I have read up on a fair few of these predators.

            At the end of the day, the one and only thing there is to go by is proven similarities. Trying to explain them away by saying that there could be alternative explanations will not work. The odds against it are absolutely staggering. And the proven similarities between Jackson and Chapman are many and in some instances incredibly rare. Therefore, these two cases are the ones most likely to be connected. By a country mile, actually.

            Just as you say, the Ripper must be regarded a prime suspect in the Thames Torso murders. And that means that Bury is ruled out if he was, because Bury was long dead when the Pinchin Street victim died. I only posted this because you asked how anybody could counter the argument that Bury was the Ripper. This is how it is done.

            I commend you on the approach of comparing the damage done to the victims. I am less enthusiastic about your choosing to prioritize your own take on the respective psychologies of the cases over the simple facts. If anything, peoples efforts to use psychological assumptions to solve the case have proven very unfruitful over the years. It is easy enough to establish that a uterus has been cut out, but much harder to say WHY it was done. One of the factors is prime evidence, the other is mere speculation.
            Last edited by Fisherman; 07-26-2020, 01:26 PM.

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            • #21
              When was the last time Elisabeth Jackson seen alive ?


              The Baron

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              • #22
                I read now that she went missing at the end of May, that rules out Bury as the killer.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                  When was the last time Elisabeth Jackson seen alive ?


                  The Baron
                  The medicos agreed that Jackson probably died on any of the two first days of June 1889. Jacksons sister met and spoke to her some little time before she was killed, but I don´t know if the date is established.

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                  • #24
                    As I see it, MacKenzie's murder is the biggest challenge to the Bury was the Ripper saga.



                    The Baron

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                      As I see it, MacKenzie's murder is the biggest challenge to the Bury was the Ripper saga.



                      The Baron
                      I don´t agree, I´m afraid, although I think the best bet we have is that MacKenzie WAS a Ripper victim. When we have a killer running around in an area, cutting women´s bellies open, that is and remains our best guess.

                      But to me, it applies that what I find is a near certainty that Jackson and Chapman were killed by the same hand is the main obstacle for Bury as the Ripper.

                      Any which way, Bury can and must be looked upon as a not very likely Ripper.

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                      • #26
                        Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


                        The Baron

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                          Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


                          The Baron
                          Elizabeth Jackson was the only Thames Torso victim whose uterus was clearly excised, correct?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                            Elizabeth Jackson was the only Thames Torso victim whose uterus was clearly excised, correct?
                            Yes, that is correct.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Baron View Post
                              Jackson was 7-8 months pregnant.


                              The Baron
                              And...?

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                              • #30
                                Bloody huge dissimilarity.

                                I understand that she could have been a ripper victim, but setting a case depending on this very 7-8 months pregnant victim is not convincing.


                                The Baron

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