Bury's move to Dundee

[Ms Diddles]

Unless, Ms D, he could have convinced them he was stark staring mad, as Peter Sutcliffe had some success with.

Confessing to being Jack the Ripper could have been seen as an utterly insane move, whether he was or he wasn't.

Love,

Caz
X

A valid point, Caz!

That late in the day, he would have had nothing to lose, so clutching at any remaining straw would have been worth a try.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Wiggins,

The Yorkshire Ripper may be an unfortunate example for general comparison purposes because, along with the likes of Fred West and Dr Harold Shipman, he didn't kill his wife.

Are there many cases where a convicted serial killer has included his wife among the victims? I can't immediately think of one apart from Bury, if the presumption is that he 'saved the best for last', after effectively practising on several anonymous women on the streets of Spitalfields. If he had killed Ellen down south, between other murders, I could have seen that as a way of getting hers considered to be another 'stranger' killing. But this is very different.

I wouldn't rule him out as a ripper suspect, but I certainly wasn't convinced by one of Bill Beadle's arguments, when he spoke at a Whitechapel Society meeting, that the victims' first names would have resonated with Bury, influencing his selection process. I could not imagine how that would have worked in practice.

Love,

Caz
X

I wasn't aware that Beadle had postulated a victim selection based on their first names.

That's a bridge too far for me.

There's a fair chance that the ripper had no idea of the victims names prior to reading about them in the papers (assuming he did this).

Perhaps this relates more to surnames, but I get the impression that people in Whitechapel used a variety of names;

Martha / Emma

Polly / Mary Ann

Mary Jane / Marie Jeannette.

It must have been hard to keep up with.......!

Plus, I find it hard to imagine Jack being "triggered" by a mere name.

A particular look, or approach from a woman, perhaps!

[Harry D]

But that would explain the move without needing Bury to have fled because the ripper investigation was getting too close for comfort.

Love,

Caz
X

I know?

[Aethelwulf]

I wasn't aware that Beadle had postulated a victim selection based on their first names.

That's a bridge too far for me.

There's a fair chance that the ripper had no idea of the victims names prior to reading about them in the papers (assuming he did this).

Perhaps this relates more to surnames, but I get the impression that people in Whitechapel used a variety of names;

Martha / Emma

Polly / Mary Ann

Mary Jane / Marie Jeannette.

It must have been hard to keep up with.......!

Plus, I find it hard to imagine Jack being "triggered" by a mere name.

A particular look, or approach from a woman, perhaps!

Yes, I'm as certain the name selection thing is ridiculous as I'm certain Bury was JtR.

I think the difference here is that it is pretty obvious Bury only married Ellen for the money. Apparently he was always going on about what he would do with the money if he could his hands on it. I don't think there could've been a financial motive for Bury killing Ellen, as she told her sister before they left for Dundee that he'd pretty much had every last penny. The fact that they moved for their first address in Dundee because it was too expensive backs that up.

Surely Ellen had suspicions about her husband. She knew he was violent, that he had slept with a knife under his pillow, that he threatened her with a knife, that he was cunning and concealed his temper, that we went out drinking in Whitechapel. I reckon when it dawned on her that the whole jobs in Dundee thing was a massive scam, she'd been pulled away from her friends and family to some dirty little hovel, in a drunken argument - I think that would've been the moment that she made her accusation, and he acted. Pure speculation, of course, but all their other arguments about money seem to have resulted in Bury hitting her an no more. I can't help feeling there must have been something different behind his final attack on her.

[Ms Diddles]

Yes, I'm as certain the name selection thing is ridiculous as I'm certain Bury was JtR.

I think the difference here is that it is pretty obvious Bury only married Ellen for the money. Apparently he was always going on about what he would do with the money if he could his hands on it. I don't think there could've been a financial motive for Bury killing Ellen, as she told her sister before they left for Dundee that he'd pretty much had every last penny. The fact that they moved for their first address in Dundee because it was too expensive backs that up.

Surely Ellen had suspicions about her husband. She knew he was violent, that he had slept with a knife under his pillow, that he threatened her with a knife, that he was cunning and concealed his temper, that we went out drinking in Whitechapel. I reckon when it dawned on her that the whole jobs in Dundee thing was a massive scam, she'd been pulled away from her friends and family to some dirty little hovel, in a drunken argument - I think that would've been the moment that she made her accusation, and he acted. Pure speculation, of course, but all their other arguments about money seem to have resulted in Bury hitting her an no more. I can't help feeling there must have been something different behind his final attack on her.

Hi Wulf!

I have always suspected that in Bury's eyes Ellen had simply outlived her use.

He'd bled her dry financially, so she had served her use.

I don't share your complete confidence that he was jtr, but I definitely see him as one of the less weak suspects who is worthy of further consideration.

[John Wheat]

I wasn't aware that Beadle had postulated a victim selection based on their first names.

That's a bridge too far for me.

There's a fair chance that the ripper had no idea of the victims names prior to reading about them in the papers (assuming he did this).

Perhaps this relates more to surnames, but I get the impression that people in Whitechapel used a variety of names;

Martha / Emma

Polly / Mary Ann

Mary Jane / Marie Jeannette.

It must have been hard to keep up with.......!

Plus, I find it hard to imagine Jack being "triggered" by a mere name.

A particular look, or approach from a woman, perhaps!

Hi Ms Diddles
Im not sure about the name thing however it's worth noting that whoever was with Mary Jane Kelly may have been with her a fair amount of time before she was killed and may have learned her name. Both Bury's sister and mother were called Mary Jane. This could explain the over kill on Mary Jane Kelly if Bury was Jack.

Cheers John

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms Diddles
Im not sure about the name thing however it's worth noting that whoever was with Mary Jane Kelly may have been with her a fair amount of time before she was killed and may have learned her name. Both Bury's sister and mother were called Mary Jane. This could explain the over kill on Mary Jane Kelly if Bury was Jack.

Cheers John

It's an interesting theory, John.

I'm just not sure how significant the name thing is.

Agreed JTR likely spent some time with MJK, but for me a name is just a name and unlikely to trigger the killer, particularly considering some names seem to have been ubiquitous at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally pro Bury as a suspect, but I feel that ultimately the results would have been the same regardless of the victims name.

Just my take on it though....

[GBinOz]

Hi Ms Diddles
Im not sure about the name thing however it's worth noting that whoever was with Mary Jane Kelly may have been with her a fair amount of time before she was killed and may have learned her name. Both Bury's sister and mother were called Mary Jane. This could explain the over kill on Mary Jane Kelly if Bury was Jack.

Cheers John

Hi John,

I'm not convinced about the name thing either however it's worth noting that on the last night of her life Eddows also called herself Mary Ann Kelly. The two women named Kelly were the only two to have attacks on their face.

Cheers, George

[Guest]

Reposted because links didnt work

The Yorkshire Ripper may be an unfortunate example for general comparison purposes because, along with the likes of Fred West and Dr Harold Shipman, he didn't kill his wife.

Are there many cases where a convicted serial killer has included his wife among the victims? I can't immediately think of one apart from Bury, if the presumption is that he 'saved the best for last', after effectively practising on several anonymous women on the streets of Spitalfields. If he had killed Ellen down south, between other murders, I could have seen that as a way of getting hers considered to be another 'stranger' killing. But this is very different.

Hi Caz

Good question, but serial killers who also killed their wives is not uncommon.
It seems it depends on how well they they got on and what they had to gain.
Some were serial wife killers.

List of serial killers who killed their wives,
Used the CTRL + F function on Wikipedia, so not a comprehensive list but just to demonstrate that it is not uncommon.
(Actually wives who helped their serial killer husbands was also just as common but I had to filter them out).


Abdullah Shah – Afgan Serial Killer who went by th nickname Zardad's dog
Kang Ho-sun – Korean Serial Killer, the karaoke killer
Charlie Brandt Florida serial killer
Robert Hicks Murray English bigamist and mass murderer
John Balaban: Austrilain Serial killer known as The Romanian Maniac
Jaime Iván Martínez: The Guarne Killer"
Luis Alberto Malagón Suárez: known as "The Sadist of Rincón
Vinko Pintarić: so called Čaruga of Zagorje
Sanjay Sharma: a Wife Drowner
Esa Åkerlund: Finnish serial killer.
Ismo Junni: the summer camp arsonist and serial killer
Pierre Laget – a French dentist.
Riaud, Joseph – French serial wife killer
Poehlke, Norbert "The Hammer-Killer"
Kau Kobayashi: the hotel posioner
Gustav Müller: German watchmaker and serial wife killer
Daniel Cooper: known as "The Newlands Baby Farmer"
Bogdan Arnold [ the polcish serial killer attempted to kill his wife but failed.
Mary Ann Britland: executed by the same man who exectuted Jack the Ripper
John Christie: I think he has been mentioned already
Robert George Clements: - serial wife killer
Frederick Bailey Deeming:
Theodore Johnson: Jamaican immigrant
Robert Hicks Murray: bigamist serial wife killer
Edward William Pritchard: English doctor and posioner
Baughman, John American murderer
Hughes, Philip Joseph killed his ex wife if that counts
Martin, James Da #vid American strangler
Wood, Isaac L. New York

[jmenges]

Reposted because links didnt work.

Yes, be conservative with the number of links you put in a single post. Otherwise the software will think you’re selling scented bar soap and flag it as spam.

JM

[Guest]

Thank you good moderator, I shall be mindful of that in the future.

[caz]

Reg Christie.

It's likely his wife knew all about his crimes and he killed her for perhaps more practical reasons, which is an argument that can be made for Bury killing Ellen.

Oh yes, Al. I had forgotten old "Reggie-No-Dick".

What a grotty little man he was.

Yes, I think he eventually realised that he had to kill the missus before she could spill any beans about him.

I wonder if Bury's motive was more about financial gain and getting rid of a woman he no longer wanted, than anything else. His motives for mutilating a series of penniless Spitalfields unfortunates would have been rather different.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Yes, I'm as certain the name selection thing is ridiculous as I'm certain Bury was JtR.

I think the difference here is that it is pretty obvious Bury only married Ellen for the money. Apparently he was always going on about what he would do with the money if he could his hands on it. I don't think there could've been a financial motive for Bury killing Ellen, as she told her sister before they left for Dundee that he'd pretty much had every last penny. The fact that they moved for their first address in Dundee because it was too expensive backs that up.

Surely Ellen had suspicions about her husband. She knew he was violent, that he had slept with a knife under his pillow, that he threatened her with a knife, that he was cunning and concealed his temper, that we went out drinking in Whitechapel. I reckon when it dawned on her that the whole jobs in Dundee thing was a massive scam, she'd been pulled away from her friends and family to some dirty little hovel, in a drunken argument - I think that would've been the moment that she made her accusation, and he acted. Pure speculation, of course, but all their other arguments about money seem to have resulted in Bury hitting her an no more. I can't help feeling there must have been something different behind his final attack on her.

The financial motive would be the fact that if he had only married Ellen for the money in the first place, she would have become a financial burden instead of a piggy bank once it was all gone.

Many a badly used and abused wife must have muttered under her breath, if not out loud or entirely seriously, thoughts about her husband being Jack the Ripper. Bury wouldn't have been the only husband within easy reach of Whitechapel who behaved so appallingly during Jack's active period and ended up doing in the missus.

Not convinced yet, but happy to be persuaded!

Love,

Caz
X

[Aethelwulf]

The financial motive would be the fact that if he had only married Ellen for the money in the first place, she would have become a financial burden instead of a piggy bank once it was all gone.

Many a badly used and abused wife must have muttered under her breath, if not out loud or entirely seriously, thoughts about her husband being Jack the Ripper. Bury wouldn't have been the only husband within easy reach of Whitechapel who behaved so appallingly during Jack's active period and ended up doing in the missus.

Not convinced yet, but happy to be persuaded!

Love,

Caz
X

I see your point but it seems so ridiculously elaborate just to get rid of someone who had become a burden. He could have just walked out once the money was gone and started up again somewhere else. I still think he was keeping the one person who could be very specific about his whereabouts under close control.

[caz]

I see your point but it seems so ridiculously elaborate just to get rid of someone who had become a burden. He could have just walked out once the money was gone and started up again somewhere else. I still think he was keeping the one person who could be very specific about his whereabouts under close control.

A violent and controlling husband typically wants to know everything about his wife's whereabouts, while coming and going exactly as he pleases, without feeling the need to tell her where he goes or what he does. If she is permanently afraid of him, she is unlikely to tell the police if he regularly goes out at all hours and comes home in a foul temper or uncommunicative mood. Men like this will often claim to love the woman they are mistreating, but it's much more about the power they need to exert over her mind and body, and murder is all too often the ultimate expression of this power.

I can see how you would read into Bury's controlling behaviour a need to keep Ellen quiet about his secret double life as Jack the Ripper, but the behaviour itself would have been common to many bastard husbands who had no such pressing motive, so it's not evidence in its own right that Bury was dealing with the darkest secret of all.

Love,

Caz
X