Bury's move to Dundee

[Aethelwulf]

I wondered what people thought of Bury’s move to Dundee in terms of alternative explanations. Alternative to Bury being JtR and wanting to put significant distance between himself and his crimes (and the police). Even if you don’t think Bury was the ripper, it does seem a bizarre thing to have done. He created fake job offers for himself and his wife and moved to the other end of the UK, where he had no connections.

The facts and general chronology (as far as I understand them) are as follows:

• Early December 1888 Bury sells his horse and cart.
• At some point before 18th Jan 1889 Bury formulates the Dundee plan and forges a job offer letter from Malcolm Ogilvy & Co for himself and his wife.
• 18^th Jan 1889 Bury and Ellen visit her sister to inform her of the move. She thinks it is odd and asks why Bury can’t go alone:
  • “I next saw her on Friday 18th January. She and the Prisoner called at my house then and told me they were going to Dundee. Prisoner began by telling me he had signed an Agreement with a Jute firm in Dundee for seven years, for £3 a week. That he was to get £2, and his wife £1 if she liked the work.”
  • “On the Saturday morning (19^th Jan) I saw them both on board the Cambria. I saw my sister alone in the cabin. I said to her why did he not go by himself? And she said she had asked him to go alone first and he had answered what could he do without her. I thought it a strange thing they were doing, and tried to persuade her not to go. I asked her if she was sure he had got a situation in Dundee and she said only by what he said—unless he was telling her falsehoods.”
• January 1889 Bury asks William Smith to make a packing box for him:
  • “In January last Prisoner came and asked me to sort a packing box for him. He said he was going with his wife to Adelaide”
  • “I asked him what dock he was leaving from. He said “I will be back in the evening and perhaps let you know. I don’t want everybody to know what dock I am leaving from.”
• 21^st Jan 1889 Bury forges a second letter, ‘from Ellen’ to Margaret informing her they are safe and well in Dundee.
• In Dundee Marjory Smith asks why they ever came here and Ellen gives an answer that contradicts her earlier conversation with her sister – that it was her idea:
  • “I asked her when alone one day “whatever induced you to come here”? and she answered, “I will tell you—he goes out at night and stops with his palls and I thought he would be better to come here.”
• Sunday 10^th Feb 1889 (morning) Bury is asked to read about Jack the Ripper and he pretends Ellen is still alive, at home waiting with his tea. He also talks about going back to London, and elsewhere:
  • “On Sunday 10th February in forenoon, he called for me (David Watson Walker) in my own room I was still in bed. He took up a paper—the people’s Journal. I asked him to read something about Jack the Ripper. He put down the paper. He remained about an hour and a half. At dinner time he said he would have to go or he would be late. He said his wife had a rabbit and a piece of pork ready for him—always something nice on Sunday.”
  • “He returned in about an hour and proposed a walk. We went a walk together. He spoke about boats and trains to London and said he wanted back among his old friends. He also asked about when vessels sailed for Glasgow Hull and Liverpool. We parted about six. He was sober. We had a bottle of beer together. He seemed restless.”
• Sunday 10^th Feb 1889 (evening) Bury informs James Parr that he has argued with his wife and she committed suicide (on Monday 4^th Feb – 6 days before the date Bury claims she is at home waiting with his tea!).

My own interpretation what was going on here will come as no surprise.

I am sure the origin of the Dundee move lies in the week/ten days before Bury sold his horse and cart. Initially I thought Bury might have been involved in some bungled attempt that wasn’t reported. But Bury read the papers and would have known he was in the clear. I tend to think that Bury was involved in something more serious. I would not be surprised if somewhere out there, there is an innocuous sounding report of a disturbance and a man being arrested, questioned and released. It must have been something that serious to warrant moving to the other end of the country.

As for Bury’s ‘what should I do without you’ when Ellen asks why he can’t go alone – I think this means ‘you are the only person who can say definitively the dates I was out all night – I want control over you, where you are and who you are talking to’.

By way of an alternative explanation, the only thing I can think of is a threat that James Martin was going to ‘set the boys on him’ for owed money. I think this sort of threat would warrant a near immediate disappearance, in great secrecy, not what Bury did. Bury does try to hide which dock he is leaving from but anyone could have found him through Ellen’s sister, who knew exactly where they were going. Also, Bury talks of heading back to London. He doesn’t seem to have been bothered by the money he owed Martin as when Ellen tried to repay it (when Martin was there), he just hit her in the face.

The one thing that stands out from the above is that Bury was clearly a very, very accomplished liar and I have no doubt he could have easily deceived the two London police officers that interviewed him.

There is also that reference to Bury stopping out at night…..

Acknowledgement: details from trial note transcript on Bury website

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Wulf,

I'd always thought that Bury had decided to do away with Ellen once he had relieved her of her inheritance.

In London there were too many witnesses to his abuse of her (her sister, the landlady, James Martin etc).

If Ellen were to be found murdered in London he would have been suspected immediately.

I believe the fake job was a ruse to get her away from everyone who would point the finger at him.

I seem to recall one of the authors (MacPherson or Beadle) postulating that Bury would likely have had an perceived Scotland as being a wild untamed place full of ruffians and people wielding claymores, where one butchered woman would go more or less unnoticed.

[Guest]

This is an interesting question, that I have considered
i have a few notions

1 - he thought he was going to get caught

I have an interest in the botched farmer assault, because the description of the assailant matches bury, and she said that she knew who the assaliant was was and knew him from some months ago "and he I'll used me then". Reports of this assault were widely distributed at the time.
If not this incident then something else like it, after the Kelly murder there was a poster widely distributed of the suspect and it's not far off what bury looked like in Beadles book. We won't know but for whatever reason he started to grow a beard.

2 - his wife began to suspect him, so he had to do away with her. She was reported to say to neighbours in Dundee that Jack ithr ripper s quiet now, she could have known. I wouldn't be surprised if she knew but she was terrified because of the violent abuse she was enduring,

it could be both

I recon he was on the run

[Guest]

Just reread and you wanted alternative suggestions,
i can't think of any, there is a report that Ellen mentioned to neighbors that he fell into bad company and was out all night, bury himself said to walker that he missed his pals in London.

maybe he was mates with the torsol murderer,

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wondered what people thought of Bury’s move to Dundee in terms of alternative explanations. Alternative to Bury being JtR and wanting to put significant distance between himself and his crimes (and the police). Even if you don’t think Bury was the ripper, it does seem a bizarre thing to have done. He created fake job offers for himself and his wife and moved to the other end of the UK, where he had no connections.

The facts and general chronology (as far as I understand them) are as follows:

• Early December 1888 Bury sells his horse and cart.
• At some point before 18th Jan 1889 Bury formulates the Dundee plan and forges a job offer letter from Malcolm Ogilvy & Co for himself and his wife.
• 18^th Jan 1889 Bury and Ellen visit her sister to inform her of the move. She thinks it is odd and asks why Bury can’t go alone:
  • “I next saw her on Friday 18th January. She and the Prisoner called at my house then and told me they were going to Dundee. Prisoner began by telling me he had signed an Agreement with a Jute firm in Dundee for seven years, for £3 a week. That he was to get £2, and his wife £1 if she liked the work.”
  • “On the Saturday morning (19^th Jan) I saw them both on board the Cambria. I saw my sister alone in the cabin. I said to her why did he not go by himself? And she said she had asked him to go alone first and he had answered what could he do without her. I thought it a strange thing they were doing, and tried to persuade her not to go. I asked her if she was sure he had got a situation in Dundee and she said only by what he said—unless he was telling her falsehoods.”
• January 1889 Bury asks William Smith to make a packing box for him:
  • “In January last Prisoner came and asked me to sort a packing box for him. He said he was going with his wife to Adelaide”
  • “I asked him what dock he was leaving from. He said “I will be back in the evening and perhaps let you know. I don’t want everybody to know what dock I am leaving from.”
• 21^st Jan 1889 Bury forges a second letter, ‘from Ellen’ to Margaret informing her they are safe and well in Dundee.
• In Dundee Marjory Smith asks why they ever came here and Ellen gives an answer that contradicts her earlier conversation with her sister – that it was her idea:
  • “I asked her when alone one day “whatever induced you to come here”? and she answered, “I will tell you—he goes out at night and stops with his palls and I thought he would be better to come here.”
• Sunday 10^th Feb 1889 (morning) Bury is asked to read about Jack the Ripper and he pretends Ellen is still alive, at home waiting with his tea. He also talks about going back to London, and elsewhere:
  • “On Sunday 10th February in forenoon, he called for me (David Watson Walker) in my own room I was still in bed. He took up a paper—the people’s Journal. I asked him to read something about Jack the Ripper. He put down the paper. He remained about an hour and a half. At dinner time he said he would have to go or he would be late. He said his wife had a rabbit and a piece of pork ready for him—always something nice on Sunday.”
  • “He returned in about an hour and proposed a walk. We went a walk together. He spoke about boats and trains to London and said he wanted back among his old friends. He also asked about when vessels sailed for Glasgow Hull and Liverpool. We parted about six. He was sober. We had a bottle of beer together. He seemed restless.”
• Sunday 10^th Feb 1889 (evening) Bury informs James Parr that he has argued with his wife and she committed suicide (on Monday 4^th Feb – 6 days before the date Bury claims she is at home waiting with his tea!).

My own interpretation what was going on here will come as no surprise.

I am sure the origin of the Dundee move lies in the week/ten days before Bury sold his horse and cart. Initially I thought Bury might have been involved in some bungled attempt that wasn’t reported. But Bury read the papers and would have known he was in the clear. I tend to think that Bury was involved in something more serious. I would not be surprised if somewhere out there, there is an innocuous sounding report of a disturbance and a man being arrested, questioned and released. It must have been something that serious to warrant moving to the other end of the country.

As for Bury’s ‘what should I do without you’ when Ellen asks why he can’t go alone – I think this means ‘you are the only person who can say definitively the dates I was out all night – I want control over you, where you are and who you are talking to’.

By way of an alternative explanation, the only thing I can think of is a threat that James Martin was going to ‘set the boys on him’ for owed money. I think this sort of threat would warrant a near immediate disappearance, in great secrecy, not what Bury did. Bury does try to hide which dock he is leaving from but anyone could have found him through Ellen’s sister, who knew exactly where they were going. Also, Bury talks of heading back to London. He doesn’t seem to have been bothered by the money he owed Martin as when Ellen tried to repay it (when Martin was there), he just hit her in the face.

The one thing that stands out from the above is that Bury was clearly a very, very accomplished liar and I have no doubt he could have easily deceived the two London police officers that interviewed him.

There is also that reference to Bury stopping out at night…..

Acknowledgement: details from trial note transcript on Bury website

Was he really an ‘accomplished’ liar Wulf or just a liar? If he’s just telling lies that fool his wife or his drinking buddies or casual acquaintances would that be particularly difficult to achieve? Facts weren’t as checkable then as they are these days of course. By definition all criminals lie but how would Bury’s lies require a particular level of accomplishment? Would the people he lied to have investigated whether he was being truthful or would they have just taken his word? The point I’m making is that lying to Fred in the pub or to a wife that’s scared of him is completely different from lying to police officers who would be looking for the slightest opportunity to be able to claim to have caught the ripper. Again, I’m not saying that it’s impossible that he might have fooled them but I’d say that we can’t dismiss the possibility that he didn’t. The fact remains that the police were desperate to catch the ripper and they went to the expense of sending 2 detectives all the way to Dundee to question him, so it’s pretty unthinkable that their questioning would be cursory, and they didn’t charge him and apparently expressed no further interest in him as a suspect. This doesn’t dismiss Bury as a suspect but it has to count as a major point against him.

[Herlock Sholmes]

What points are there against the suggestion that Bury wanted to get rid of his wife and Dundee was far enough away from prying family and friends? What if he intended to dump her body (hence the trunk) then return to London to tell her family that she’d left him for another man?

[Guest]

expense of sending 2 detectives all the way to Dundee to question him

Unless im mistaken, the only source that this actually happened came from the executioner Berry in one of his books. And a few newspaper reports much later.
Unless anyone has any others?
Im pretty sure that Berry wrote that the detectives were convineced he was Jack and that there wouldnt be anymore murders in Whitechapel.

Now I must upload that, because i also remember something about his handwriting being known to them, and also there was something about Masonic cuffings and the fact he was calm up to the point when he made a big fuss about taking off his neck scalf. But I dont remember exactly and its probably from multiple sources, so I will upload on another thread and account of the exectution and where this source material was from.

Wulf - another good post, thanks. One minor point, I dont think Bury forged that second letter, i thought he was writing what Ellen dictated but i could be wrong.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Unless im mistaken, the only source that this actually happened came from the executioner Berry in one of his books. And a few newspaper reports much later.
Unless anyone has any others?
Im pretty sure that Berry wrote that the detectives were convineced he was Jack and that there wouldnt be anymore murders in Whitechapel.

Now I must upload that, because i also remember something about his handwriting being known to them, and also there was something about Masonic cuffings and the fact he was calm up to the point when he made a big fuss about taking off his neck scalf. But I dont remember exactly and its probably from multiple sources, so I will upload on another thread and account of the exectution and where this source material was from.

Wulf - another good post, thanks. One minor point, I dont think Bury forged that second letter, i thought he was writing what Ellen dictated but i could be wrong.

But surely you can’t believe Berry?

[John Wheat]

But surely you can’t believe Berry?

Why not?

[John Wheat]

Was he really an ‘accomplished’ liar Wulf or just a liar? If he’s just telling lies that fool his wife or his drinking buddies or casual acquaintances would that be particularly difficult to achieve? Facts weren’t as checkable then as they are these days of course. By definition all criminals lie but how would Bury’s lies require a particular level of accomplishment? Would the people he lied to have investigated whether he was being truthful or would they have just taken his word? The point I’m making is that lying to Fred in the pub or to a wife that’s scared of him is completely different from lying to police officers who would be looking for the slightest opportunity to be able to claim to have caught the ripper. Again, I’m not saying that it’s impossible that he might have fooled them but I’d say that we can’t dismiss the possibility that he didn’t. The fact remains that the police were desperate to catch the ripper and they went to the expense of sending 2 detectives all the way to Dundee to question him, so it’s pretty unthinkable that their questioning would be cursory, and they didn’t charge him and apparently expressed no further interest in him as a suspect. This doesn’t dismiss Bury as a suspect but it has to count as a major point against him.

But were they expecting someone as ordinary as Bury to be the Ripper? This could have prejudiced the polices thinking as regards Bury.

[MrBarnett]

Seems like a long-premeditated domestic murder with a financial motive - is that what the Ripper murders were? If so, Bury could well be your man.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why not?

Surely if the police were convinced that Bury was the ripper they wouldn’t have just walked away and then made no further mention their belief John?

[Herlock Sholmes]

But were they expecting someone as ordinary as Bury to be the Ripper? This could have prejudiced the polices thinking as regards Bury.

The problem for me John is that I’d agree if they’d interviewed him before he’d killed Ellen but as they interviewed him after he’d just murdered his wife, mutilated her body and then put her in a trunk then they would have known that they couldn’t just go by appearances. The ordinary looking Bury had proved himself capable of a terrible murder. I wouldn’t dispute with you that Bury probably wasn’t the type of person that they had envisioned as the ripper though John and whilst it’s not impossible that Bury fooled them it’s still possible that they came away from the interview with information that was checkable after they’d returned to London.

[Guest]

I'm slightly concerned about deviation from the original post which posed a good question.
but If this did actually happen as berry wrote, and 2 detectives did go up to Dundee and they were convinced that he was probably the ripper. What would have happened when they got back to London?

As what happened in the Yorkshire Ripper case and the people who worked on that, they were swamped with work load and potential lines of enquiry, they had to deal with hundreds potential suspects and they had tunnel vision over the Jewish suspect just as the west Yorkshire police did over the north eastern issue.

And our Victorian detectives did not have the benefit of the work that has gone into understand these kind of sexual killers, it was before Douglas and Keppel and all the rest of them who contributed.

So these 2 detective's bosses probably listened and shrugged their shoulders, they probably said well he's not a Jew and he didn't confess and what have we got?

But now we have benefit from the modern analysis, and it turns out that Bury is exactly the kind of man who would do this and how rare this sexual mutilation is and how unlikely it was that two such men would be in the same place at the same time.

Mind you that torsol killer troubles me

[Guest]

Come to think of it there was another torsal murder that happened in the west midlands in 1880 something which I found trawling through the newspapers, that I don't think the torsal people have clocked yet, funny enough because it's probably close to were bury would have been at the time, not that I'm suggesting anything, but it is of interest recently so now I must remember to upload that on that other thread about that torsal murders