Signature Analysis and Bury's Murder of Ellen

[Sam Flynn]

We know he moved to London just before the canonical murders

As did thousands

...many of them much closer to the heart of Ripper territory.

[Sam Flynn]

We know Bury was out all night sometimes

Do we? Evidence please...OK it wouldn't surprise me if such a pisshead was out all night sometimes...but evidence it was THOSE nights please...

And, for that matter, where he was. My money's on the Poplar area - there were plenty of pubs and prostitutes there, so there was no need for him to stray further west.

[johns]

I walked (with a sore knee at the time) from the corner of Campbell Road and Bow Road A11 (near Bury's residences) to the junction of the same A11 where it meets the Commercial Road A13 (near to the Ripper murder sites) and it took 45 minutes.

I don't think that's way out of Bury's strike range and bear in mind he had a horse and cart.

He could have targeted Bow and Poplar instead but if he was JtR there may have been some reason he didn't.

Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper lived in North West Bradford and didn't kill anyone in that area. He always travelled. Admittedly transport was easier in the 1970s but I think it's an important point to note.

Just my 2 cents of course.
Regards all
John

[John Wheat]

I don't think that's way out of Bury's strike range and bear in mind he had a horse and cart.

He could have targeted Bow and Poplar instead but if he was JtR there may have been some reason he didn't.

I agree Johns, the Ripper murder sites really aren't that far away from Bow especially when you consider Bury owned a horse and cart. Also it doesn't take a genius to work out that murdering in a location further away from your residence would decrease your chances of being apprehended.

Cheers John

[curious]

I'd keep that one quiet if I were you, Eileen. You may as well say that he was a typical Gemini.

So that's why Bury and I think alike!

[Cogidubnus]

Hi John

the Ripper murder sites really aren't that far away from Bow especially when you consider Bury owned a horse and cart. Also it doesn't take a genius to work out that murdering in a location further away from your residence would decrease your chances of being apprehended.

So presumably he just parked up the horse and cart somewhere near Spitalfields whilst he did his stuff...and in this squalid criminal area, nobody nicked it...ever...

All the best

Dave

[John Wheat]

So presumably he just parked up the horse and cart somewhere near Spitalfields whilst he did his stuff...and in this squalid criminal area, nobody nicked it...ever...

I assume there were places you could leave a horse and cart tied up that were fairly secure but I wouldn't proclaim to be an expert on parking horses and carts in 1888. Also Bury was reportedly frequently in public houses presumably at least some of the time he would leave his horse and cart unattended.

With all the canonical murders with the exception of Mary Jane Kelly the culprit would probably only need five minutes to commit the murder. I'm certain there were places you could leave horse and carts for five minutes without it being nicked.

Besides a 45 minutes walk isn't that long to walk. Maybe Bury went on several pub crawls ending with a murder.

Cheers John

[Cogidubnus]

Hi John

I think I prefer your second option...I would guess that when Bury went out for a real night on the razzle, the horse and cart were securely stabled back near home!

Cheers

Dave

[John Wheat]

I think I prefer your second option...I would guess that when Bury went out for a real night on the razzle, the horse and cart were securely stabled back near home!

To Dave

I think either scenario is about as likely. Having said that, surely Bury could use money from Ellen Bury's inheritance to stable a horse and cart where ever he wanted.

Cheers John

[Mrsperfect]

Read my thread!

And, for that matter, where he was. My money's on the Poplar area - there were plenty of pubs and prostitutes there, so there was no need for him to stray further west.

Oh come on Sam, cut me some slack here.....

Once, Ellen confided to Martin and Kate Spooner, (his partner), that her husband often stayed out until the early hours, sometimes disappearing for a couple of days, only to re-appear, the worse for wear and take his temper out on her.

I think Bury makes a perfect Gemini, only he probably ate his twin 'in utero' ha ha! Sorry to all the Geminis out there!

Cogidubnus.......what Bury did with the crate after he disembarked was his business. We know a witness testified that one crate was almost empty when they stayed at lodgings, upon arrival at Dundee.

Why do you think Bury went to Dundee? I suspect he knew Ellen suspected him of being JtR and he also knew that she wouldn't part with the last of her shares if her sister was around to influence her.

What do you think the two detectives that went to see him, (from London) could have done if they thought he was JtR? They would have a major problem on their hands..............a suspect and no way to link him to the crimes? Leave well enough alone!

Bury's landlady at the Scottish lodgings was terrified of him! If your mother was terrified of a lodger, I suspect she'd have remembered that one, regardless of whether he turned out to be a murderer or not!

By your logic, NO ONE would own a horse and cart! Do you really think he'd make a quick getaway ......................by horse and cart?

Bury would be a fool to attempt to mutilate a wife that committed 'suicide' but he just couldn't help himself! May I remind you he nearly got away with it in spite of this?

Unless you sleep with a knife under your pillow, (perhaps all Geminis do?) then I'm not entertaining this idea.

How many men entered London just prior to the canonical murders and left not long afterwards and then murdered and mutilated their wife? Thousands?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Eileen

Cogidubnus.......what Bury did with the crate after he disembarked was his business. We know a witness testified that one crate was almost empty when they stayed at lodgings, upon arrival at Dundee.

Surely it was...but if we are to rely on the larger crate going North empty as evidence of malice aforethought, then it becomes very much OUR business too. I'm afraid the evidence of the inventory alone suggests strongly that there were goods extracted from the crate before the body was forced into it...

Why do you think Bury went to Dundee? I suspect he knew Ellen suspected him of being JtR and he also knew that she wouldn't part with the last of her shares if her sister was around to influence her.

If you're asking why specifically Dundee, I'm as baffled as you are...at the time, ships left the Port of London regularly for the rest of the world...not to mention the UK...perhaps Dundee was a cheap destination far enough away from London to deter Ellen's sister...perhaps there was some other reason known only to him...and now lost...why not Bristol, Liverpool, Hull, Portsmouth, Southampton, or a whole host of other places served regularly by steamers?

I suspect she'd already parted with the remaining shares...it may be these had paid their passage...I'm keeping a very much open mind but believe it's possible it was her little basket of jewels he was seeking to part her from...note (again from the inventory) that they're not there at the finish...

What do you think the two detectives that went to see him, (from London) could have done if they thought he was JtR? They would have a major problem on their hands..............a suspect and no way to link him to the crimes? Leave well enough alone!

Anderson, Dew, McNachten, Abberline and others (posthumously Swanson too) had no qualms in this respect - to some degree of specifics or another...

Scotland Yard was really taking a LOT of stick for not tracing JtR and London was still in one hell of a stir for a long time after. Even the Queen was having a poke at them...If they could've stated, even on the slightest of pretexts, that JtR had been executed, then they would've...

Bury's landlady at the Scottish lodgings was terrified of him!

So she said, after the event, and with the benefit of considerable hindsight...

By your logic, NO ONE would own a horse and cart! Do you really think he'd make a quick getaway ......................by horse and cart?

Not at all...what I said was, that apart from Diemschitz, nobody, no witness, noone at all connected with the case reported hearing a horse and cart galloping off the scene...so Jack's quick getaways were most likely not Ben-Hur affairs.

People owned horses and carts for many reasons...some perfectly legal, others possibly not. There would appear to be no evidentially supported reason for JtR being one of the latter.

Bury would be a fool to attempt to mutilate a wife that committed 'suicide' but he just couldn't help himself! May I remind you he nearly got away with it in spite of this?

Bury was a bloody fool. If he'd simply had a shave, got on a train to somewhere (anywhere) else, alighted, and announced he was Fred Bloggs looking for work, he'd have most likely got away with it...Instead he hung around for a week, half-heartedly fiddled with his wife's body, and then meekly gave himself in...

He had several times more opportunity than MJKs killer to make an impression - and he barely scratched the surface...there is no comparison...he didn't even cut her throat...

And to claim he nearly got away with it...the defence evidence was complete and utter nonsense...a shambles...true the jury had problems but they still first time round came up with a guilty verdict (albeit with a plea for mercy)...when the point of law was explained to them they very rapidly returned with a guilty verdict...

Unless you sleep with a knife under your pillow, (perhaps all Geminis do?) then I'm not entertaining this idea.

What idea? I admitted you might have a point here...the point I was making was that the POSSESSION of a clasp knife, alone, might imply nothing; the presence of it under the pillow is distinctly strange

How many men entered London just prior to the canonical murders and left not long afterwards and then murdered and mutilated their wife? Thousands?

That we don't know...but probably not...but there again logically that is not evidence, nor even a suggestion that Bury was JtR...for that, I'm afraid we need a good deal more...it makes it a possibility though...I'll give you that...and that's why I regard him as interesting...

All the best

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Once, Ellen confided to Martin and Kate Spooner, (his partner), that her husband often stayed out until the early hours

My concern is where he went, as I'm sure it is yours... albeit I find it more logical to believe he went drinking and whoring in Bromley/Poplar, where there was a ready supply of ale-houses and prostitutes. More prostitutes than Spitalfields in fact, and probably less world-worn than the raddled wrecks of Flowery Dean and Thrawl Street.

sometimes disappearing for a couple of days, only to re-appear, the worse for wear and take his temper out on her.

Many drunken wife-beaters do the same, sadly, and Bury comes across as just that. The point is, cowards like him need to tank up on booze before they can act the tough guy. I don't think Jack the Ripper needed any such "dutch courage", nor do I see him being capable of carrying out - and getting away with - elaborate mutilation murders whilst drunk either.

[John Wheat]

Many drunken wife-beaters do the same, sadly, and Bury comes across as just that. The point is, cowards like him need to tank up on booze before they can act the tough guy. I don't think Jack the Ripper needed any such "dutch courage", nor do I see him being capable of carrying out - and getting away with - elaborate mutilation murders whilst drunk either.

To Sam

I think it's important to note that many serial killers were/are heavy drinkers eg Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer and John Wayne Gacey. I don't think its that unlikely that Jack was a heavy drinker.

Cheers John

[Ben]

Also it doesn't take a genius to work out that murdering in a location further away from your residence would decrease your chances of being apprehended.

But nor would it take a genius to work out that most (all?) serial murders that occur within walking distances of each other are committed by an offender living within the region circumscribed by the outermost locations. If the killer lived on Spanby Road, it would make him a "very rare" - and thus very unlikely - commuter type of offender.

Regards,
Ben

[John Wheat]

But nor would it take a genius to work out that most (all?) serial murders that occur within walking distances of each other are committed by an offender living within the region circumscribed by the outermost locations. If the killer lived on Spanby Road, it would make him a "very rare" - and thus very unlikely - commuter type of offender.

Regards,
Ben

Rare but not beyond the realms of possibility. There are no absolutes with serial killers.

Cheers John