William Bury the Whitechapel Murderer ?

[lynn cates]

termini ante quem and a quo

Hello. Permit an observation about coincidences concerning arriving in Whitechapel about the time of the Tabram or Nichols murder and leaving just after Kelly was murdered.

It seems to me that over half the major suspects here on the boards have been given that dubious distinction PRECISELY because their arrival and departure dates coincide with the beginning and ending of the canonical murders and perhaps Tabram. That's why D'Onston, Chapman, Druitt et al. begin to look more attractive as candidates; Ostrog and Cream much less so (and their board activity seems to bear this out).

Doubtless many people arrived in and departed from Whitechapel within this general time frame. But we are looking for one Jack (er, well, maybe). Hence it may be, that there were MANY coincidences here. To illustrate: if D'onston were the Ripper, then Druitt's beginning his visits to his mum and his eventual suicide dates are now coincidences. The same for Chapman's arrival and departure dates.

On the other hand, such "coincidences" cannot be readily discounted and lends, at least, prima facie plausibility to the candidacy. So in any investigations, these dates may well serve as termini ante quem and a quo.

lynn cates

[The Good Michael]

Secondly what about the chalked messages they suggest either that Bury was the Ripper or a copycat killer.

John,

That wasn't the initial point. The point was about whether or not Bury's murder of his wife was as brutal as it should have been had he been the Ripper, and given the time he had, in private, to do what ever he wanted. The answer is, of course, that it wasn't the kind of murder that one would suspect from the Ripper under those circumstances. Chalk doesn't enter into it.

Cheers,

Mike

[John Wheat]

Not as Brutal

I have to disagree with you the murder of Ellen Bury is exactly the type of murder we would expect to see her murder carries all the hallmarks of a Ripper murder, admitedly not as brutal although I think that was deliberate. Any killer who has got away with several previous murders is not going to hang himself.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam your wrong in pretty much everything you're saying.

Thanks for the encouragement, John

Firstly the M.O. used to murder Ellen Bury isn't that dissimilar to that used in by Jack the Ripper.

I see it as resembling, not so much the Ripper murders, but a domestic incident where a drunken husband flies off the handle and panics at what he's done.

I really don't see a handful of stabs and cuts (and none of the cuts were either long or deep) resembling Jack the Ripper's methods in the slightest. To think otherwise would be tantamount to attributing a newly-discovered Lowry painting to the pre-Raphaelites, on the basis that John Everett Millais "might" have decided to regress to painting stick-men.

Secondly what about the chalked messages they suggest either that Bury was the Ripper or a copycat killer.

What about the innumerable loonies who claimed they were Jack the Ripper who, because they weren't killed or hanged at Dundee, never quite made the headlines?

And I suppose you regard the fact that the Ripper murders stopped shortly before Bury went to Dundee as a coincidence.

On the contrary - I'm not overlooking the fact that hundreds of thousands of people other than Bury did an almost infinite number of things just after the Ripper murders (apparently) stopped. Why should we single out Bury's departure for Dundee amongst all the other possibilities? That, to me, is relying too much on coincidence.

[John Wheat]

Sam I don't believe that hitting your wife round the head with a poker, strangling her and then mutilating her body before stuffing her into a box and then leaving the body in the box for days on end and playing cards on top of the box as the actions of a one time wife murderer. Also if Bury was a one time wife murderer why the chalk messages? You mention coincidence there does seem to be alot of "coincidences" with Bury. His wife was a prostitute, he caught venereal disease from a prostitute possibly his wife. Bury matches almost exactly with pretty much every Jack the Ripper psych profile. True psych profiles are never going to be 100 per cent accurate but how many other Ripper suspects match the psych profiles? Bury is also as I have previously stated the only proven violent killer out of all the Ripper suspects. As your keen to dismiss Bury as a Ripper suspect who anyone with any sense would regard as being a much stronger suspect than many of the ludicris suspects who's Ripper candidacies have in all likeliness been dreamt up by crackpots who do you regard as being Jack the Ripper? Or are you either as I possibly suspect sitting on the fence as reguards who was Jack the Ripper or going with the "Unknown local male" theory?

Cheers

John

[Sam Flynn]

Sam I don't believe that hitting your wife round the head with a poker, strangling her and then mutilating her body before stuffing her into a box and then leaving the body in the box for days on end and playing cards on top of the box as the actions of a one time wife murderer.

What about the actions of a long-term alcoholic wife-beater, then, John - which is how I see it. To me, what Bury did isn't in the least inconsistent with the idea of a violent piss-head. Specifically, the actions of one who freaked out after having whacked his missus just a little too hard (this time), and who didn't quite know what to do about it (or about himself) afterwards.

Or are you either as I possibly suspect sitting on the fence as reguards who was Jack the Ripper or going with the "Unknown local male" theory?

You suspect wrongly, John. I base my conclusions on the evidence, and I see nothing but the most superficial resemblance between Bury's crime and those of the Ripper.

[John Wheat]

Yes Sam, Bury was as you say a violent piss head but considering most serial killers are violent piss heads or at the very least tend to commit there murders having drunk heavily this fact doesn't exactly diminish Bury's Ripper candidacy.

Cheers

John

[The Grave Maurice]

I haven't visited this thread for a while, but I'm happy to see that the bickering continues unabated. Thanks Colin and johns for the excellent photos. I'm sure many of us appreciate being able to view the locations.

I still can't see Bury scoring higher than a 3 on this scale. Even so, that would probably make him my favourite among the named suspects.

[John Wheat]

Maurice, I'm with you on your point that of the named suspects Bury is the most plausible.

Cheers

John

[johns]

Bury is also as I have previously stated the only proven violent killer out of all the Ripper suspects.

Cheers

John

There's James Kelly who stabbed his wife in the neck.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you, John. On the way to the Bury home, the Tower Hamlets Cemetery

[Roy Corduroy]

Old sign still there.

[miss_anna]

I gave Bury an 8. Him and Chapman, both proven murderers, are in my opinion the most likely of the known suspects to be the ripper.

[curious]

Bury is also my pick of the known suspects.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Curious and Anna and a warm welcome to you both-

I recommend a new book on this subject The Trial of Jack the Ripper by Euan Macpherson. The author makes a good case for Bury also being the Whitechapel fiend. Not only because he killed his wife, there's more than that. He descibes a scenario which unfolds. I don't want to give it away, though.

It was a very reasonable price at amazon. Only $3 plus freight. So you might want to give it a try.

Again, welcome to the discussion group,

Roy