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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Drivel. You can’t wedge someone into a trunk and call it deliberate placement in a degrading position. She was placed in a position so that she could fit into the trunk. You don’t display somebody by putting them in a box. I can’t recall any of the Ripper victims in London being parcelled up by the murderer. Or have I missed one? This is infantile nonsense. You’ve found a couple of people that think Bury might have been the ripper and you shout “case closed.” This is not how things work. It’s all over because the case has been solved to the satisfaction of half a dozen people. You need a sense of proportion. Blatant shoehorning.
    Shoehorn Leghorn strikes again, lol. I have your routine on here pegged now: ignore the facts that bear on an issue, and just keep saying “shoehorning” over and over.

    Your posts in this thread have been a total failure.

    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
    http://www.williambury.org

    Comment


    • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

      Thanks for those links Wyatt. Interesting content.

      Cheers John
      Thanks, John.

      “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

      William Bury, Victorian Murderer
      http://www.williambury.org

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

        The only problem you have is that the facts don’t support your conclusion, they support a conclusion that the body was deliberately placed in that degrading position. Them facts is pesky things ain’t they?

        The Ellen Bury murder was a sexual homicide. Someone who actually knows how to assess this kind of evidence, like Keppel, would take one look at the position of that body and tell the jury that it was posed.

        Dr. Stuart Hamilton is a forensic pathologist who has provided expert testimony at numerous trials. He agrees that the signature evidence links William Bury to the Jack the Ripper murders. Is he shoehorning too? According to whom, the expert on signature analysis, “Herlock Sholmes” on Casebook? What a joke.

        Two well regarded legal people, Stewart and Murray, have indicated that we have enough evidence now to convict Bury of the Ripper murders. I don’t honestly care if you’re willing to accept the result in this case or not. What I care about is if you’re able to come up with an effective criticism of what I’ve presented with Bury.

        You have tried and you have failed, and so all you can do is continue with your empty cries of “shoehorning.”
        Did Stewart and Murray claim that the storage of the body was sexual posing or are you conflating that into everything else?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

          Shoehorn Leghorn strikes again, lol. I have your routine on here pegged now: ignore the facts that bear on an issue, and just keep saying “shoehorning” over and over.

          Your posts in this thread have been a total failure.
          There’s no ‘routine.’ It’s called staying within the bounds of reason. It’s called not exaggerating. Its called not letting bias run away with you. You should try it.

          Ive said numerous times that I think that Bury is a suspect worth looking at. I’ve never simply dismissed him. My ‘issue’ is when you say something like “and because we now know that Bury was the ripper...” It’s not an exact quote but it’s certainly accurately what you said...more than once. So I don’t think I’m alone, in fact I’d say that 99% would agree with me, in saying that this ‘fact’ is untrue. Being ‘solved’ to the satisfaction of yourself and a few others, no matter how knowledgeable, is not a case of ‘game over’ and if you can’t see and accept that point then a Mount Everest of reason and logic won’t help.

          We all know that things like profiling, and signatures are nothing like foolproof and yet you appear to consider them as such. They are tools which can help but which can also fail us. And so jumping up and down and proclaiming ‘game over’ just because one of those tools might appear to some to point in one direction is a simple over-confidence on the part of someone promoting a suspect. In other words...bias.

          Finally, your point about Ellen Bury being sexually posed in a trunk. I’ve genuinely never heard such blithering nonsense before. This is evidence of your desire to promote Bury run amok. Her body is wedged into a trunk for gods sake! Obviously she has to have her limbs forced into such a position so that she fits inside. How can anyone possibly say that the position she was in was the result of posing and not necessity? You could bring forward 100 ‘experts’ on this point and every one would be wrong. Categorically, absolutely and without a single shred of doubt wrong. This is shoehorning pure and simple. It’s desperation.

          And on the same point. Yes maybe Bury was anticipating the shock/horror of someone discovering the body but obviously there’s an alternative explanation. That, as do most men who kill their wives, Bury was intending to dispose of the body. Let’s face it, leaving it where it was would have been a confession and the ripper had shown no previous indications of a desire to be caught. Quite the opposite in fact. If any killer had been discovered to have his wife’s murdered body in a trunk what would have been the generally opinion; then or now?

          So I’ve mention two points, and there are more in your list, where there are alternative and reasonable explanations and yet every time you go for the one that tends toward incriminating Bury. All that I’m doing Wyatt is staying within the bounds of reason. Of accepting logical alternatives. Of not getting completely carried away. You have a theory which you on which you appear to disapprove of criticism.
          Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 02-21-2020, 12:41 PM.
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

            Did Stewart and Murray claim that the storage of the body was sexual posing or are you conflating that into everything else?
            I haven’t conflated anything with anything, Harry. I’ve reiterated that the facts clearly support a conclusion that the body was posed (we already know that the body was being posed from the turning of the victim’s head to one side, which wouldn’t have been necessary in order to fit her body into the trunk), and I’ve expressed confidence that someone like Keppel would quickly come to the same conclusion, based on his crime scene assessments that I’ve seen.

            Bury could have put the body into the trunk in any one of a number of different ways. So what do we find? Victim on back, legs positioned in a sexually degrading way, head turned to one side, just as occurred in the two most recent of the canonical murders, Eddowes and Kelly. That’s striking. Compare with McKenzie’s body, which, according to Arnold’s police report, was found lying on its side.

            In the Dundee Courier article, Stewart and Murray only made general remarks regarding the legal strength of the case against Bury.
            “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

            William Bury, Victorian Murderer
            http://www.williambury.org

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              There’s no ‘routine.’ It’s called staying within the bounds of reason. It’s called not exaggerating. Its called not letting bias run away with you. You should try it.

              Ive said numerous times that I think that Bury is a suspect worth looking at. I’ve never simply dismissed him. My ‘issue’ is when you say something like “and because we now know that Bury was the ripper...” It’s not an exact quote but it’s certainly accurately what you said...more than once. So I don’t think I’m alone, in fact I’d say that 99% would agree with me, in saying that this ‘fact’ is untrue. Being ‘solved’ to the satisfaction of yourself and a few others, no matter how knowledgeable, is not a case of ‘game over’ and if you can’t see and accept that point then a Mount Everest of reason and logic won’t help.

              We all know that things like profiling, and signatures are nothing like foolproof and yet you appear to consider them as such. They are tools which can help but which can also fail us. And so jumping up and down and proclaiming ‘game over’ just because one of those tools might appear to some to point in one direction is a simple over-confidence on the part of someone promoting a suspect. In other words...bias.

              Finally, your point about Ellen Bury being sexually posed in a trunk. I’ve genuinely never heard such blithering nonsense before. This is evidence of your desire to promote Bury run amok. Her body is wedged into a trunk for gods sake! Obviously she has to have her limbs forced into such a position so that she fits inside. How can anyone possibly say that the position she was in was the result of posing and not necessity? You could bring forward 100 ‘experts’ on this point and every one would be wrong. Categorically, absolutely and without a single shred of doubt wrong. This is shoehorning pure and simple. It’s desperation.

              And on the same point. Yes maybe Bury was anticipating the shock/horror of someone discovering the body but obviously there’s an alternative explanation. That, as do most men who kill their wives, Bury was intending to dispose of the body. Let’s face it, leaving it where it was would have been a confession and the ripper had shown no previous indications of a desire to be caught. Quite the opposite in fact. If any killer had been discovered to have his wife’s murdered body in a trunk what would have been the generally opinion; then or now?

              So I’ve mention two points, and there are more in your list, where there are alternative and reasonable explanations and yet every time you go for the one that tends toward incriminating Bury. All that I’m doing Wyatt is staying within the bounds of reason. Of accepting logical alternatives. Of not getting completely carried away. You have a theory which you on which you appear to disapprove of criticism.
              Two well regarded legal figures have put their reputations on the line and stated that the evidence is there to support a conviction of Bury for the Ripper murders, and you have no answer, Shoehorn, except to keep repeating your nonsensical views of the evidence.
              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
              http://www.williambury.org

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

                I haven’t conflated anything with anything, Harry. I’ve reiterated that the facts clearly support a conclusion that the body was posed (we already know that the body was being posed from the turning of the victim’s head to one side, which wouldn’t have been necessary in order to fit her body into the trunk), and I’ve expressed confidence that someone like Keppel would quickly come to the same conclusion, based on his crime scene assessments that I’ve seen.

                Bury could have put the body into the trunk in any one of a number of different ways. So what do we find? Victim on back, legs positioned in a sexually degrading way, head turned to one side, just as occurred in the two most recent of the canonical murders, Eddowes and Kelly. That’s striking. Compare with McKenzie’s body, which, according to Arnold’s police report, was found lying on its side.

                In the Dundee Courier article, Stewart and Murray only made general remarks regarding the legal strength of the case against Bury.
                Okay, so Stewart and Murray were speaking generally and did not comment on the positioning of the body when reaching their conclusion that this was a sexual homicide?

                I would assume that there are only so many ways to cram a body into a trunk. Also, the Ripper's victims were purposely killed where they would be found by others. Presumably, Bury placed Ellen into the trunk because he intended to dispose of the body. If that wasn't the case, why store her there in the first place?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

                  I haven’t conflated anything with anything, Harry. I’ve reiterated that the facts clearly support a conclusion that the body was posed (we already know that the body was being posed from the turning of the victim’s head to one side, which wouldn’t have been necessary in order to fit her body into the trunk), and I’ve expressed confidence that someone like Keppel would quickly come to the same conclusion, based on his crime scene assessments that I’ve seen.

                  No it doesn’t and you know it. She was stuffed into a trunk. Why do people usually stuff bodies into trunks? What does crime history tell us about this or do we ignore the inconvenient? Can you state for an absolute fact that the positioning wasn’t entirely random? No you can’t. The position of the head is irrelevant. Head pointed this way or that? Foot pointed this way or that? Left arm hand upward or downward? You’re reading tea leaves and seeing what you want to see.

                  And you’ve expressed confidence that a dead man, if alive, would have agreed with you. Of course he would have. Very convincing.


                  Bury could have put the body into the trunk in any one of a number of different ways. So what do we find? Victim on back, legs positioned in a sexually degrading way, head turned to one side, just as occurred in the two most recent of the canonical murders, Eddowes and Kelly. That’s striking. Compare with McKenzie’s body, which, according to Arnold’s police report, was found lying on its side.

                  Exactly!!! Any number of random ways. If he’d have pointed the head the other way due to necessity or pointed a foot in the opposite direction would you have said “oh well obviously he wasn’t staging the body?” It’s impossible to read anything into a body being stuffed into a box except for possibly a) the nature of the injuries, b) any method of binding, c) evidence from the clothing or d) the reason for the killer doing so in the first place.

                  In the Dundee Courier article, Stewart and Murray only made general remarks regarding the legal strength of the case against Bury.

                  General remarks. Ok.
                  A calm, reasoned assessment of Bury as a suspect is always welcome. Unfortunately you appear to have become a zealot on the subject. Debating with you is like debating someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old I’m afraid. You will admit to no doubts. This level of ludicrous over-confidence should be a warning to all.
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                  “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                  “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                  “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                  “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                    Okay, so Stewart and Murray were speaking generally and did not comment on the positioning of the body when reaching their conclusion that this was a sexual homicide?
                    In the Courier article, Stewart and Murray didn’t say anything about the murder being a sexual homicide. The Ellen Bury murder can be classified as a sexual homicide because of the genital mutilations, which are described in detail in the two medical reports on the Bury website.


                    I would assume that there are only so many ways to cram a body into a trunk. Also, the Ripper's victims were purposely killed where they would be found by others. Presumably, Bury placed Ellen into the trunk because he intended to dispose of the body. If that wasn't the case, why store her there in the first place?
                    Perhaps because he didn’t want her stinking corpse in bed with him? He lived with the corpse for days before reporting her death to the police.
                    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                    http://www.williambury.org

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                      Okay, so Stewart and Murray were speaking generally and did not comment on the positioning of the body when reaching their conclusion that this was a sexual homicide?

                      I would assume that there are only so many ways to cram a body into a trunk. Also, the Ripper's victims were purposely killed where they would be found by others. Presumably, Bury placed Ellen into the trunk because he intended to dispose of the body. If that wasn't the case, why store her there in the first place?
                      A natural and reasonable assumption Harry. Man kills wife, what’s his next move? Get rid of the body. He’s hardly likely to have walked out onto the street will Ellen over his shoulder.








                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        A calm, reasoned assessment of Bury as a suspect is always welcome. Unfortunately you appear to have become a zealot on the subject. Debating with you is like debating someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old I’m afraid. You will admit to no doubts. This level of ludicrous over-confidence should be a warning to all.
                        Whatever. Just go on ignoring the well qualified people who have thoroughly reviewed the Bury case materials and who believe that it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Bury was the Ripper. Rock on.
                        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                        http://www.williambury.org

                        Comment


                        • Perhaps because he didn’t want her stinking corpse in bed with him? He lived with the corpse for days before reporting her death to the police.
                          Possibly he was considering what to do, how to dispose of her , but eventually he decided to give himself up.
                          Regards

                          Herlock




                          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post

                            Whatever. Just go on ignoring the well qualified people who have thoroughly reviewed the Bury case materials and who believe that it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Bury was the Ripper. Rock on.
                            “Whatever.”

                            I cant compete with debating skills like that.

                            Two or three people favour Bury. Case closed. Well done.
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                            Comment


                            • while I think Bury is a very valid suspect for the ripper murders, Im with herlock and Harry on doubts how a body can be displayed in a sexually degraded position while stuffed in a trunk. perhaps its possible, but unless wyatt can specifically show how this is so and or quote experts who say this-id need more info to consider.

                              It seems that stuffing a body in a trunk is the first move to hide and get rid of a body-not display it IMHO.

                              and re the ripper related graffiti on his house-it does seem like could be neighborhood kids ragging on a nasty character whos from London, but I wouldn't dismiss it-the ripper was known to have probably written graffiti before, and with Burys apparent obsession with NOT being the ripper-it could be significant.

                              If he was the ripper, I could see the un ripper like way he got caught, along with the graffiti as a man unravelling psychologically.


                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                                In the Courier article, Stewart and Murray didn’t say anything about the murder being a sexual homicide.
                                Fair enough.

                                Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                                Perhaps because he didn’t want her stinking corpse in bed with him? He lived with the corpse for days before reporting her death to the police.
                                Well then, that's more of a practical matter isn't it?

                                Btw, someone really needs to edit Bury's entry on Murderpedia. It speaks about him attacking Ada Wilson and Annie Millwood as if they are known facts: https://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/bury-william-henry.htm

                                It also claims Bury pretended an intruder had killed Ellen, when in fact he said she accidentally killed herself.

                                Comment

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