William Bury website

[Wyatt Earp]

Do you think that Keppel and the other three professionals were unaware of these things when they made their assessment?

who knows? maybe. The average casebooker probably knows more about the case than he does.

Have you read the article by Keppel et al., in which they describe their signature analysis of the Whitechapel murders?

[Abby Normal]

Since the Ellen Bury murder occurred at Bury's residence, he could not have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing to the world that "William Bury" was Jack the Ripper. McKenzie's murderer was under no such constraint, he could have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing his name.



Of course McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity. All he had to do was sink his knife in deeper.

Hi wyatt

Since the Ellen Bury murder occurred at Bury's residence, he could not have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing to the world that "William Bury" was Jack the Ripper.

sure he could have. he could have gotten rid of her body afterward-seems he was already thinking in that direction with stuffing her in the box.


however, it was his wife, so I could see for psychological reasons why he didn't go through with it. (plus he could have been losing it by this point as well).

McKenzie's murderer was under no such constraint, he could have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing his name.

Iwould posit he was under a lot of constraint as this was a public street murder, and the ripper was anything if not cautious about getting caught red handed.

Of course McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity. All he had to do was sink his knife in deeper

to me McKenzie murder has all the hallmarks of a ripper who was off his game-sick, drunk, didn't have the right knife etc.


but then again that also kind of applies to bury and the murder of ellen, so there my conundrum. lol

[Abby Normal]

Do you think that Keppel and the other three professionals were unaware of these things when they made their assessment?

who knows? maybe. The average casebooker probably knows more about the case than he does.


I take FBI profiling conclusions with a grain of salt, and for good reason.


now that being said, I don't dismiss it. I see the rippers sig with ellens murder also and somewhat agree with there (and your) assessment.


But wyatt, Im in kind of in weird space here, because I think Bury is one of the more viable ripper candidates-Ive got him in my top tier of only a handful of suspects in that regard, but I also lean toward mckenzie being a ripper victim. so its kind of hard for me to argue to strongly with you!

[Wyatt Earp]

And not to sound like a stuck record but McKenzie's murder occurring in-between the two Torso cases is mighty strange.

That wouldn't be a very good reason to ignore the forensic evidence in the case, which is telling us that McKenzie was murdered by someone other than the Ripper.

[Wyatt Earp]

and yet bury with obviously all the time in the world didn't go to town on ellen like the ripper did with Kelly,given the opportunity of committing the murder in a private residence.

Since the Ellen Bury murder occurred at Bury's residence, he could not have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing to the world that "William Bury" was Jack the Ripper. McKenzie's murderer was under no such constraint, he could have gone to town on the victim's body without revealing his name.

and on the contrary-mckenzies murder, being out on the street, the killer dosnt have "ample opportunity" to do so, and very well may have been scared off like with earlier ripper victims.

Of course McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity. All he had to do was sink his knife in deeper.

[Wyatt Earp]

HI Wyatt


McKenzie was found with her skirt hiked up exposing the abdomen-like most of the other ripper victims.

she also fits the ripper in many other aspects-at night, stranger murder, location, victimology.

she fits MO-cause of death-- severance of left carteroid artery.(unlike Ellen Bury)

and sig-- with post mortem mutilation to the abdomen and specifically a vertical gash.


Bond and monro thought she was a ripper victim.



theres more than enough there to conclude that most likley she was a ripper victim.

Do you think that Keppel and the other three professionals were unaware of these things when they made their assessment?

[Abby Normal]

And not to sound like a stuck record but McKenzie's murder occurring in-between the two Torso cases is mighty strange.

yup and that the two series ended at the same time with McKenzie and then pinchin!

[Harry D]

theres more than enough there to conclude that most likley she was a ripper victim.

And not to sound like a stuck record but McKenzie's murder occurring in-between the two Torso cases is mighty strange.

[Abby Normal]

But it doesn't fit the signature, which generally remains very stable. On a superficial level, the McKenzie murder looks more like a Ripper murder than the Ellen Bury murder. It's when you examine the underlying signature structures of the two murders that you see that Ellen Bury belongs to the Ripper and McKenzie does not.



The doctors who examined Ellen Bury's body indicated that her abdomen had been cut open. McKenzie's abdomen was not, even though McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity to do so.

and yet bury with obviously all the time in the world didn't go to town on ellen like the ripper did with Kelly,given the opportunity of committing the murder in a private residence.

and on the contrary-mckenzies murder, being out on the street, the killer dosnt have "ample opportunity" to do so, and very well may have been scared off like with earlier ripper victims.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry for the late reply to this.

According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/

Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?

The Ripper was a murderer who quickly incapacitated his victims, and we see that in the Ellen Bury murder as well. The person who murdered Alice McKenzie was the exact opposite of that. Of McKenzie, Phillips wrote that there was “no physiological reason why the woman should not have uttered a cry” (Ultimate, p.509).

There’s nothing wrong with questioning the view of an expert, but you better have your ducks in order if you expect to prevail. You haven’t given the Ripper community a good reason to set aside the signature assessment made by four professionals, one of whom is among the world’s leading experts on the topic, in favor of your own assessment.

HI Wyatt

According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/

McKenzie was found with her skirt hiked up exposing the abdomen-like most of the other ripper victims.

she also fits the ripper in many other aspects-at night, stranger murder, location, victimology.

she fits MO-cause of death-- severance of left carteroid artery.(unlike Ellen Bury)

and sig-- with post mortem mutilation to the abdomen and specifically a vertical gash.


Bond and monro thought she was a ripper victim.



theres more than enough there to conclude that most likley she was a ripper victim.

[Wyatt Earp]

McKenzie's murder fits the victimology, MO and geography of the killer.

But it doesn't fit the signature, which generally remains very stable. On a superficial level, the McKenzie murder looks more like a Ripper murder than the Ellen Bury murder. It's when you examine the underlying signature structures of the two murders that you see that Ellen Bury belongs to the Ripper and McKenzie does not.

Ellen Bury's mutilation was mostly superficial too. I'm sure being crammed into a box was part of the reason her intestines were protruding from the wound.

The doctors who examined Ellen Bury's body indicated that her abdomen had been cut open. McKenzie's abdomen was not, even though McKenzie's murderer had ample opportunity to do so.

[Harry D]

Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?.

McKenzie's murder fits the victimology, MO and geography of the killer.

Ellen Bury's mutilation was mostly superficial too. I'm sure being crammed into a box was part of the reason her intestines were protruding from the wound.

[Wyatt Earp]

Many of the police at the time thought Mckenzie was a ripper victim and with good reason. The (somewhat) final straw with me is she was found on her back with the skirt hiked up-like the others.

as you also may well know, the pinchin torso also had a vertical gash to her midsection and I lean toward the torsoman and the ripper being the same man.

Sorry for the late reply to this.

According to Arnold’s report (Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, p. 502), McKenzie’s body was found lying on its side. Phillips found her lying on her back, but he wasn’t the first person on the scene. She was evidently tipped onto her back prior to his arrival. We have sexually degrading positioning of the victims’ legs in the Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly and Bury murders. We don’t have that in the McKenzie murder. For anyone who thinks the victims’ legs could all have wound up in those positions by accident, please see my post “Did Bury Pose the Bodies?” http://williambury.org/blog6/2017/12...se-the-bodies/

Why would you prefer the superficial cut to McKenzie’s abdomen to the opening up of Ellen Bury’s abdomen?

The Ripper was a murderer who quickly incapacitated his victims, and we see that in the Ellen Bury murder as well. The person who murdered Alice McKenzie was the exact opposite of that. Of McKenzie, Phillips wrote that there was “no physiological reason why the woman should not have uttered a cry” (Ultimate, p.509).

There’s nothing wrong with questioning the view of an expert, but you better have your ducks in order if you expect to prevail. You haven’t given the Ripper community a good reason to set aside the signature assessment made by four professionals, one of whom is among the world’s leading experts on the topic, in favor of your own assessment.

[Kattrup]

Ellen was a worker at a brothel being operated by James Martin and Kate Spooner. At this time, she was renting a room from Elizabeth Haynes. Haynes noticed that Ellen was never in her room at night (Macpherson, The Trial of Jack the Ripper, p.45). Later, Ellen admitted to Haynes “that she had worked as a prostitute for James Martin for the whole of the time she had been a tenant with her” (p.48).

Thank you for the info

[Wyatt Earp]

I'm curious, what are every one's thoughts on Rose Mylett as a possible "incomplete" Ripper victim? I know Bill Beadle considered her a good possibility for Bury, as she was within close proximity to his home (at a time when Bury had sold off his transportation) and was possibly killed with a ligature in the same fashion as Ellen Bury. Was this WHB's first attempt to step away from throat slashing?

I don't see a good reason to link this murder to Bury.