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  • #46
    Originally posted by paul g View Post
    Just on the subject of comparing the C5 murders and the murder of Bury's wife by Bury.
    There are similarities and one observation I have is when Jack was killing in the east end to a degree there was some planning. The fact that Jack left where ever he lived late at night armed with a knife and materials to strangle took planning no matter weather he suffered from mental issues or not they were to a degree planned .
    When bury murdered his wife it was possible he flipped and murdered straight away without planning, but still similarities to the C5.
    Good point Paul G

    Cheers John

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      Abdominal mutilation is itself a rare fetish for a killer, and one that Bury happened to 'share' with the Whitechapel murderer.
      And MacKenzies killer! And Liz Jacksons killer!

      They must have been around in numbers, the abdominal mutilators.

      Unless you are correct, and it IS a rare fetish.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Harry D View Post
        Abdominal mutilation is itself a rare fetish for a killer, and one that Bury happened to 'share' with the Whitechapel murderer.
        I don't know if it's considered a fetish if you've only done it once.

        The fetish to me wouldn't be the mutilations but the organ removal.

        Columbo

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
          And MacKenzies killer! And Liz Jacksons killer!

          They must have been around in numbers, the abdominal mutilators.

          Unless you are correct, and it IS a rare fetish.
          There is the possibility any if these killings could've also been JTR copycats.

          Columbo

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            And MacKenzies killer! And Liz Jacksons killer!

            They must have been around in numbers, the abdominal mutilators.

            Unless you are correct, and it IS a rare fetish.
            Yes, it is statistically unlikely that Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie were both copycat murders. If there's one unsolved murder in the Whitechapel series that comes off as the perfect copycat, it would be Clay Pipe's.

            Originally posted by Columbo View Post
            I don't know if it's considered a fetish if you've only done it once.

            The fetish to me wouldn't be the mutilations but the organ removal.

            Columbo
            In your opinion, would that strengthen the case for Bury?

            Comment


            • #51
              Harry D: Yes, it is statistically unlikely that Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie were both copycat murders. If there's one unsolved murder in the Whitechapel series that comes off as the perfect copycat, it would be Clay Pipe's.

              I would suggest that the perfection you speak of instead places it within the realms of the Ripper murders. The less perfect strike, that of Ellen Bury, is what seems to me to be a clumsy effort to hint at a Ripper killing, and thus the more reasonable suggestion for a "copycat murder".
              This is - the way I see it - reinforced by the graffiti speaking of the Ripperīs presence.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                I would suggest that the perfection you speak of instead places it within the realms of the Ripper murders. The less perfect strike, that of Ellen Bury, is what seems to me to be a clumsy effort to hint at a Ripper killing, and thus the more reasonable suggestion for a "copycat murder".
                This is - the way I see it - reinforced by the graffiti speaking of the Ripperīs presence.
                The graffiti must have been written by Bury or someone after the murder became common knowledge. It could be that Bury wrote the graffiti as his confession in a drunken haze and forgot to scrub it out. Either way, I don't see what impact it has on Ellen Bury as a copycat murder since Bury tried to distance himself from the Ripper.

                McKenzie's murder is the perfect copycat in the sense that it has enough basic similarities to consider it as a Ripper murder but the tentative mutilations, lack of organ removal, throat stabbing over slicing, and the time lapse leave sufficient room for doubt.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Columbo View Post
                  There is the possibility any if these killings could've also been JTR copycats.

                  Columbo
                  what do you mean by copy cat?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                    Yes, it is statistically unlikely that Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie were both copycat murders. If there's one unsolved murder in the Whitechapel series that comes off as the perfect copycat, it would be Clay Pipe's.



                    In your opinion, would that strengthen the case for Bury?
                    I'm not sure yet. Not being very familiar with him I'm playing catch-up to learn more.

                    Columbo

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      what do you mean by copy cat?
                      I mean it's entirely possible someone tried to emulate the JTR murders. Whoever obviously did a bad job at it. Just a suggestion.

                      Columbo

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                        Harry D: Yes, it is statistically unlikely that Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie were both copycat murders. If there's one unsolved murder in the Whitechapel series that comes off as the perfect copycat, it would be Clay Pipe's.

                        I would suggest that the perfection you speak of instead places it within the realms of the Ripper murders. The less perfect strike, that of Ellen Bury, is what seems to me to be a clumsy effort to hint at a Ripper killing, and thus the more reasonable suggestion for a "copycat murder".
                        This is - the way I see it - reinforced by the graffiti speaking of the Ripperīs presence.
                        Agreed, although I'm not sure I would consider Ellen Bury's murder a copycat. It seems what he did to her was out of drunken anger and necessity to put her in the box.

                        Columbo

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Harry D: The graffiti must have been written by Bury or someone after the murder became common knowledge. It could be that Bury wrote the graffiti as his confession in a drunken haze and forgot to scrub it out. Either way, I don't see what impact it has on Ellen Bury as a copycat murder since Bury tried to distance himself from the Ripper.

                          I am saying that it seems to me to point to a fascination with the Ripper.

                          McKenzie's murder is the perfect copycat in the sense that it has enough basic similarities to consider it as a Ripper murder but the tentative mutilations, lack of organ removal, throat stabbing over slicing, and the time lapse leave sufficient room for doubt.

                          True enough.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Columbo View Post
                            Agreed, although I'm not sure I would consider Ellen Bury's murder a copycat. It seems what he did to her was out of drunken anger and necessity to put her in the box.

                            Columbo
                            Itīs the Ripper graffiti that suggests to me that Bury had the Ripper in mind. Otherwise I agree - there is much to tell it apart from the real thing.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              Itīs the Ripper graffiti that suggests to me that Bury had the Ripper in mind. Otherwise I agree - there is much to tell it apart from the real thing.
                              Having the Ripper in mind, i.e. a confused killer, trying to blame the victim for suicide and trying to blame Jack the Ripper for murdering her. This is the disorganized type of killer.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Bury is an iconoclastic suspect who destroys the mythology of the Ripper. I don't think many people are prepared to accept that one of the most infamous and elusive killers in history was actually a drunken wife-beater. However, history testifies that most serial killers are unremarkable people.

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