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  • WH Bury Problems

    I regard WH Bury as the strongest suspect for JTR. But what are the problems with Bury as a suspect?

  • #2
    Nothing physically connects him to the case, he didnt live in the immediate area, and IMHO mckenzie is a probable ripper victim, which of course would rule him out.

    That being said he's In my top tier of most viable suspects.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Abbey

      Thanks for the response. I take your points but it is worth noting Bury did not live that far away from Whitechapel and he did own a horse and cart. And McKenzie is as you know far from guaranteed to be a Ripper victim, in fact common consensus is that McKenzie wasn't a Ripper victim.

      Cheers John

      Comment


      • #4
        My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

        That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post
          My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

          That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.
          Hi Harry

          I take you're points however is the way Bury stuffed Ellen into trunk and left it there for around a week reportedly playing cards on it the actions of a one time wife murderer? Because it doesn't seem the sort of thing a one time wife murderer would do. Also it is worth noting Ellen was mutilated. If Bury had mutilated Ellen much more surely he would have been tried as Jack the Ripper. Bury was not that stupid. Bury's actions seem to me to be the actions of serial killer who has had a mental breakdown. Its is obvious to me and you that no other suspect comes close. There are of course very few proven violent knife murders among the other suspects let alone one with Jack's M.O. I can of course hear the cries off but he never cut her throat, he was a copycat killer and not JTR. To this my reply is but a copycat killer would not have strangled a victim. Pretty much everyone at the time believed the throat cutting was what killed Jack's victims.

          Cheers John

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Harry D View Post
            My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

            That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.
            I see more of the major similarities than the minor differences. Proven murderer, victim is a woman,knife used, strangulation, but of course the main one-abdominal mutilation.

            I think that his lame un ripper like way he got caught could be the fact that it's his wife killed in his place and that the pressure of it all finally caught up to him, along with his alcoholism, as in mentally he was losing it.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              I take you're points however is the way Bury stuffed Ellen into trunk and left it there for around a week reportedly playing cards on it the actions of a one time wife murderer? Because it doesn't seem the sort of thing a one time wife murderer would do
              You'd be surprised, John. There have been many single murderers who have gone to great lengths to cover up their crimes. You should never underestimate the human ability to adapt in high-stress environments. A serial killer's every instinct would be to flee the scene of the crime. William Bury could've been on the first boat out of the country if he wanted to. Faced with the alternative of handing himself into the police, which is what he effectively did, it's got to be a no-brainer. Whether he was tried with the Ripper murders or just Ellen Bury, he still had a hangman's noose waiting for him.

              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              Also it is worth noting Ellen was mutilated. If Bury had mutilated Ellen much more surely he would have been tried as Jack the Ripper. Bury was not that stupid.
              If that were the case, he wouldn't have mutilated her at all.

              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              Bury's actions seem to me to be the actions of serial killer who has had a mental breakdown
              No argument there, and I'd daresay this is something that puts a lot of people off Bury as a suspect. Such an ignominious end isn't befitting of a legendary serial killer.

              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              I can of course hear the cries off but he never cut her throat, he was a copycat killer and not JTR.
              I don't think the lack of throat-cutting proves anything in regard to Bury as a suspect. The Ripper's situation called for dispatching his victims cleanly and efficiently. Not only to muffle their screams, but to facilitate exsanguination before the organ removal. Bury arguably didn't need to take such precautions in his basement flat.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                You'd be surprised, John. There have been many single murderers who have gone to great lengths to cover up their crimes. You should never underestimate the human ability to adapt in high-stress environments. A serial killer's every instinct would be to flee the scene of the crime. William Bury could've been on the first boat out of the country if he wanted to. Faced with the alternative of handing himself into the police, which is what he effectively did, it's got to be a no-brainer. Whether he was tried with the Ripper murders or just Ellen Bury, he still had a hangman's noose waiting for him.



                If that were the case, he wouldn't have mutilated her at all.



                No argument there, and I'd daresay this is something that puts a lot of people off Bury as a suspect. Such an ignominious end isn't befitting of a legendary serial killer.



                I don't think the lack of throat-cutting proves anything in regard to Bury as a suspect. The Ripper's situation called for dispatching his victims cleanly and efficiently. Not only to muffle their screams, but to facilitate exsanguination before the organ removal. Bury arguably didn't need to take such precautions in his basement flat.
                Hi Harry

                Yes but he nearly got away with Ellen's murder. Yes but Bury did not mutilate Ellen that severely. Two reasons for this he's wasn't stupid and he seemed to be going through a mental breakdown. I suggest Bury didn't flee the country because he feared he would be tried as the Ripper. Bury seemed to believe his **** and bull story would be his best chance of escaping the noose and considering he nearly got off Ellen's murder he probably wasn't wrong. Let's be honest had the Ripper murders been committed a century later in 1988 and Bury had then murdered his wife in the same way he murdered Ellen in 1988 the chances of Bury not being charged for at least one of the Rippers crimes are virtually non existent.

                Cheers John

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  I see more of the major similarities than the minor differences. Proven murderer, victim is a woman,knife used, strangulation, but of course the main one-abdominal mutilation.

                  I think that his lame un ripper like way he got caught could be the fact that it's his wife killed in his place and that the pressure of it all finally caught up to him, along with his alcoholism, as in mentally he was losing it.
                  Hi Abby

                  I agree.

                  Cheers John

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                    Hi Abbey

                    Thanks for the response. I take your points but it is worth noting Bury did not live that far away from Whitechapel and he did own a horse and cart. And McKenzie is as you know far from guaranteed to be a Ripper victim, in fact common consensus is that McKenzie wasn't a Ripper victim.

                    Cheers John
                    So why could he also not be considered for the torso murders? He owned a horse and cart, so why not?

                    Columbo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Columbo View Post
                      So why could he also not be considered for the torso murders? He owned a horse and cart, so why not?

                      Columbo
                      Hi Colombo

                      Bury had been hung for Ellen's murder by the time of the last Torso Murder.

                      Cheers John

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                        Hi Colombo

                        Bury had been hung for Ellen's murder by the time of the last Torso Murder.

                        Cheers John
                        Thanks, I just looked that up right before I read this.

                        It's obvious Bury has problems as a suspect, but so do all the others obviously. I find it interesting he was adamant he wasn't JTR.

                        I know this has been discussed on another thread, but after reading more on Bury I realize now that he could not kill his wife in the JTR method. If he did and tried to claim JTR did it, he would obviously be discovered and accused of the Whitechapel murders.

                        Columbo

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Columbo View Post
                          Thanks, I just looked that up right before I read this.

                          It's obvious Bury has problems as a suspect, but so do all the others obviously. I find it interesting he was adamant he wasn't JTR.

                          I know this has been discussed on another thread, but after reading more on Bury I realize now that he could not kill his wife in the JTR method. If he did and tried to claim JTR did it, he would obviously be discovered and accused of the Whitechapel murders.

                          Columbo
                          Hi Colombo

                          Bury was never adamant he wasn't Jack the Ripper.

                          Cheers John

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                            Hi Colombo

                            Bury was never adamant he wasn't Jack the Ripper.

                            Cheers John
                            Maybe I mis-read but didn't he almost come to tears when he was shown a newspaper or something by his lawyer and was afraid he would be considered a JTR suspect?

                            Columbo

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Columbo View Post
                              Maybe I mis-read but didn't he almost come to tears when he was shown a newspaper or something by his lawyer and was afraid he would be considered a JTR suspect?

                              Columbo
                              Hi Colombo

                              I've never heard that story. From what I know about Bury he'd be concerned he'd be more likely to be hung if it's true of course. I'm pretty sure Bury denied being JTR to the London Police when questioned although what he said to the Police in Dundee is unclear he reportedly said he was afraid he'd be seen as a ripper or something although he was drunk and slurring his words so he could just as easily have said he was the Ripper. And it seems likely that both Ellen Bury and James Berry his hangman thought he was Jack and might have even told Berry this.

                              Cheers John

                              Comment

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