First time spotted 1878

[sahlandilbaz]

Yes but we must not accept whats is written easily, we are not looking at something solved and done. We have advantages and disadvantages. Our logic and new methods must be used to interpretatiton.
As an example, barnett was a docker and porter. Yes but just for the sake of argument say, if you are under interrogation one doesnt want to give his real job, real address or tries to use these for buying time. We have to look deeper if possible. Profile the thinking, similarities with new cases and killers. Im not saying you guys are wrong, but we cant say reading them all helps. On the contrary someone without any knowledge could offer a very different perspective. I try to use both, a total beginner approach and someone who has knowledge about things,people,timeline and classic evidence.
Well from a profiler point i liked the idea of a young barnett comitting a crime very much. Because from today we know these people start early very early. Barnetts past crimes, suspicious activities reported must be a great interest to us. And also children, animals are first victims of these teen serial killers.
Do not read without a second thought, do not let go of suspicion, and of course do not think like people from 1888.

[MrBarnett]

Joseph Barnett was not a cigar maker, He was Irish ,his father was a docker. The irish tended to do labouring jobs, portering and the docks. Joe and his brothers followed the same path, except Denis the eldest, I think was a carman.
Different jobs attracted different nationalites and jobs tented to run in families. There were cigar factories in Spitalfieds making hand made cigars. It was a specialist job. These factories were staffed by Jews from the Netherlands known as 'chuts' They were low paid and worked 11 hours a day.

Never let facts get in the way of a wild supposition.

Miss Marple

Miss Marple,

Was the job of a Billingsgate porter on a par with casual labouring and dock work?

Were there no people of Irish origin involved in the small-scale industries of the East End?

If I found a Michael Sullivan listed as a cigar maker in the East End, should I assume he was Jewish?

I agree wholeheartedly that wild supposition should be avoided - almost as much as simplistic generalisation.

MrB

[Disco Stu]

Just saw this thread has taken new life, ironically being resurrected for the sole purpose of complaining about it.

Just to clarify, I was on this site in the late 90's. I re-signed up in 2012. I've noticed a lot of the "facts" on this site haven't changed much since I first signed up. There's errors in a lot of the work which, while generally minor, could stand to be corrected. A lot of information has become available for the first time in recent years, and in other cases, information has become available to a wider audience for the first time.

If someone comes along and asks a question, answer it or not. If someone believes a question has already been answered, they can by all means provide a link to the relevant thread. Someone could even take it as an opportunity to reinvestigate the matter from a fresh angle. The worst that can happen is you might learn something new.

And yes, I did have fun looking up the Joe Barnett in question, it was a nice mental exercise.

[Scott Nelson]

Oh yeah, I remember you, Disco Stu.

[miss marple]

MrBarnett,
Barnett had a porter's license but was not continuously a porter, sometimes he was a labourer, as in the 1881 census, then he lost his porter's license while with Mary, and regained it in 1906. Labouring was the most available unskilled work to do. The dock workers were mostly Irish, and a very a close knit community. The organisation of dock work was terrible, on a casual basis, hundreds of dock workers would turn up in the morning , not knowing if they were going to get a job that day, it was casual labour, often only working for a few hours a day. Those not 'called on ' were sent home without pay. The appalling conditions led to the Great Dock Strike of 1889.
The world that Joseph Barnett was brough up in was the world of the docks and labouring. Fish portering was a part of that world and a better paid but you could use your license for a variety of reasons, as Jo did.

The world of the cigar maker, was semi skilled and needed training. It was mostly European Jews. There may have been a few English or Irish working in the cigar industry but communities tended to look after their own, and like it or not different communities tended towards certain industries, that is not generalisation.

People have to be placed in a historical context. Theie background is going to influence their choices.

The is a lot of speculation asnd rubblish on the website but their are also very well researched posts on the victims, the suspects, the witnesses, as well as Victorian history, medical practise. police precedure etc. There are historians,respected ripper experts, etc sharing their knowledge. Because of them we know alot more about the principle charactors than we did thirty years ago. So do not dismiss all as 'speculation'

We know a lot about Joe Barnett and his family.

Miss Marple

[sahlandilbaz]

Mrs marple

Canyou gie me a link for barnett family, especially about his older brother

[miss marple]

Hi Sahilandbaz,

The is various Barnett stuff on the Barnett thread and elsewhere but I will describe the family here from my notes.

Father John Barnett, a docker married Catherine Hayes [ both born in Ireland]

Eldest son Denis born in Chalk Kent 1849. They then moved to the docks area of East London.
children born in East London

Catherine born 1852
Daniel born 1853
Joseph born 1858
John born 1860

John the father died in 1864 which would have left the family destitute, Catherine the wife moves in with Thomas Allman an Irish docker, as housekeeper / ropemaker, whos wife had died the same year. This was survival. He was living in a street parallel to the Barnetts and has a 12 year old daughter.
By the 1871 census the siblings are living together with Denis the eldest in charge. Denis gets his fish porters license [ sorry when i said he was a cabman that was his brother in law] Denis soon marries Mary Anne Garrett,
In the 1881 census they have two children Denis 9 and John 6 and a widowed aunt Mrs Hayes living with them in Bermondsey.
Sister Catherine marries Joseph Beer, a cabman in 1881 they are living in Spitalfields and have two children, Catherine 7 and Elizabeth 5. It was Catherine, Joseph stayed with at the time of MK inquest.[ different address] In 1881 census Joe was visting brothert John. All the siblings seemed close as they did not lose contact with each other.
Mrs Barnett died in in 1885 after marrying Allman a few months before, Allman went on to marry a third time.it was thought that the other brothers did not marry but Sally has discovered John did.
Bruce Paley found out a lot about the family, including the porters licenses but did not know what happened to Catherine and could not find some birth certs. We know more now. Chris Scott did some work on Catherine, finding her second marriage which had been mistranscribed,

Miss Marple

[Mayerling]

About this cigar making profession, i can say it must be a temporary and easily claimed one. Our poor people sometimes brng home beads and strings and make cheap jewelry. I guess cigar maker in 19th century london could be like this, bringing material and selling the final product.

Hi all,

Just one of my side points, since the world of cigar making in the East End is being tossed so much about. In the 19th Century one English cigar maker of Dutch Ancestry came to the United States (to New York City). Eventually the man turned into a historical giant of his time. He was Samuel Gompers, the founder of the American Federation of Labor (now part of the A.F.L.C.I.O.) and Labor's leading voice in government regulations and arbitration until his death in the 1920s.

Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

Jeff you continue to amaze me, and I'm sure many others feel the same...

Thanks so much mate

Dave

[Mayerling]

Jeff you continue to amaze me, and I'm sure many others feel the same...

Thanks so much mate

Dave

Thanks Dave.

Jeff

[sahlandilbaz]

Did you guysnoticed

The one came up with the ripper dairy
Michael Barrett,
I hate this surname barrett, barnett, ...

[MrBarnett]

The one came up with the ripper dairy
Michael Barrett,
I hate this surname barrett, barnett, ...

With such reasoning, I'm sure you'll solve the case in no time .

[sahlandilbaz]

Another mary ann

Denis barnett married mary ann garrett
Which could be added to mary anns involved
Now six of them?

Wont somebody please check chapman crime scene neighbors james walker and son alfred john walker. Alfred's condition may be false.

[GUT]

The one came up with the ripper dairy
Michael Barrett,
I hate this surname barrett, barnett, ...

With such reasoning, I'm sure you'll solve the case in no time .

MrB's just worries because he's been spotted.

[sahlandilbaz]

Yes i didnt noticed that,
Gotcha!