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First time spotted 1878

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  • First time spotted 1878

    I was reading m.j. Trow's the ripper hunter.
    He says had time to examine abberline's own press cuttings about his old cases.
    One of the given cases is Elizabeth "fanny" lazarus' unsolved murder.
    Abberline's one of two murder cases in cuttings.
    If wanted i could give details, but in short first and probably the most important witness was non other than Joseph Barnett.
    I dont know if it is the same man but he listed as cigar maker of 9 old castle street.
    Little kid drowned, 20 years old joseph, not solved case...

    What do you think?
    Im writing this as i now still reading the book, but writer seem not to detect barnett name.

  • #2
    It's hard to say. Barnett didn't get his fish porters licence until July 1st, and the murder was late May/early June if I recall correctly, so occupation is inconclusive. I'll check the census and see if I can find if the witness was still a cigar maker in 1881.

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    • #3
      It's a different Joseph Barnett, going by the age. (This is from the 1871 census, Old Castle Street)

      Click image for larger version

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      Laurence Alison, in their 2005 book, "Forensic Psychologists Casebook: Psychological profiling and criminal investigation", has also noted the coincidence of the names, but didn't follow up the matter at the time.

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      • #4
        I see another barnett on Whitechapel Vigilance Committee member list. Can you help with this too?
        Thank you for your help.
        Regards,

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        • #5
          I'll need a little more detail than that, but I'll see what I can do.

          I would, however, suspect if it was the Millers Court Barnett, it would have been commented on that he was in the Vigilance Committee. Also Barnet, and variations, was a fairly common name chosen by Jewish immigrants when Anglicising, and the Vigilance Committee had a large Jewish migrant component.

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          • #6
            I wish newbies would take time to read posts before they jump in about things. We know all about Joe Barnett, his parents , his siblings and virtually all his addresses from when he was born.1858 Hairbrain Court, His father,John was a docker. After his fathers death, his mother Catherine moved in with Thos Allman, a docker[ later marrying him before she died] and Joe lived with his elder siblings.
            Look at the other Barnett posts ' the real Joe Barnett to get the addresses. the kent Joe is wrong, just a speculation but everything else is right.
            He came from a very close knit family who all lived fairly close to each other.
            and kept in touch.
            Have a read of Bruce Paley's book. I don't agree with his thesis that Joe was the killer but he did find out a lot of info on the Barnett family, as did later Sally and Chris Scott.

            Miss Marple

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            • #7
              Originally posted by miss marple View Post
              I wish newbies would take time to read posts before they jump in about things.

              Miss Marple
              Well, Miss Marple, ten out of ten for the most condescending utterance this week. Sahlandilbas and Disco Stu were really enjoying themselves discussing what is obviously of great interest to them. Get off your high horse and behave yourself.

              Carol
              Last edited by Carol; 10-16-2014, 07:54 AM.

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              • #8
                I was thinking about the so called imbecil son of james walker during chapman.
                Im having hard time accessing this forum from turkey,istanbul most of the time.
                Ive tried to look in to him more and he seems to move australia and have a son. Isnt it interesting for an imbecil?
                His name is alfred john walker ,and on the records it is sometimes called wakfer
                Right age, interesting psychology,witnessed weird noises and conversations made me look in to this people.
                Dont get mad because i cant find anywhere this person as a suspect.
                Can you guys give him another look,cmy access is very limited

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Carol View Post
                  Well, Miss Marple, ten out of ten for the most condescending utterance this week. Sahlandilbas and Disco Stu were really enjoying themselves discussing what is obviously of great interest to them. Get off your high horse and behave yourself.

                  Carol
                  The irony is that neither is a newbie. Sahlandibas joined in April 2008 and Disco Stu in August 2012.
                  Last edited by Bridewell; 10-19-2014, 11:16 AM.
                  "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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                  • #10
                    About this cigar making profession, i can say it must be a temporary and easily claimed one. Our poor people sometimes brng home beads and strings and make cheap jewelry. I guess cigar maker in 19th century london could be like this, bringing material and selling the final product.
                    Thas why a fish porter easily can show himself as one.
                    Thing about barnett is ,we must not forget, his deminour, his deep involvement, his suspicious brothers, his almost too perfect statements and easily accepted uninvolvement.
                    As for people saying grapes as a luring thing i find it very very funny.

                    Girls seem to like hats more than anything and. Cant trmember but one of the victims says "i got a new hat see?"
                    And this also easily explains the mysterious black bag theory.
                    Two people involvement is another thing im sure of and barnett could be in this position with one of his brithers, possibly the older one.
                    And im also sure barnett exaclty knows who is the second person or so called mary let her to stay in millers court. But never mentions it with a name.
                    She is the probable victim, only surprised is mary herself yelling "murder" when sees what happened inside , while barnett in her arm couldnt hold her not to look in.
                    Possibly mary gets whats coming later and becomes another torso in thames.
                    Three witnesses cant all be wrong seeing her after.
                    Barnett is the man, and he must know every single person.
                    No one is also talking about the sharp dressed gentleman with the horse pin.
                    Whose a very likely person involved.
                    This butchering could be related with another non mentioned profession. Which is being a soldier. English army fighting nearly every known part of the world and has to have some post travmatic syndromed people in.
                    We have to think what bear the killer and what could have hapoened other than anywhere in the world but london.
                    The horse pinned guy going around chapel could be using that pin for pride, must matter to him. Ive checked many sources. Kent police uses still the horse insignia. Ex soldier,police or someone used to violence theory maybe applies to him.
                    Talking about two man theory of course.
                    Not too literate, someone mocking vigilance commity, someone easily trusted by police or known to police, someone has seen too much ,been in violence too much. Barnett, how did you got away it still amazes me.
                    And abberlines commentary years later telling high places to look fir the killer.
                    Maybe it was later years killer got to higher places getting promoted.
                    Barnett is my number one man, but about the second man, im gonna hunt him forever.
                    This imbecil son of james walker, can anyone help?
                    Also while searchung walker lastname came up with some different results like wacher, wachter. Possibly another polish/german jew? No mother. Old father. Right place, right time, right deminour.

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                    • #11
                      I don't mean to be condersending but there is so much information on the site that people dont bother to read, so its constantly reinventing the wheel, instead of building on whats known.

                      Miss Marple

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                      • #12
                        Joseph Barnett was not a cigar maker, He was Irish ,his father was a docker. The irish tended to do labouring jobs, portering and the docks. Joe and his brothers followed the same path, except Denis the eldest, I think was a carman.
                        Different jobs attracted different nationalites and jobs tented to run in families. There were cigar factories in Spitalfieds making hand made cigars. It was a specialist job. These factories were staffed by Jews from the Netherlands known as 'chuts' They were low paid and worked 11 hours a day.

                        Never let facts get in the way of a wild supposition.

                        Miss Marple

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by miss marple View Post
                          I don't mean to be condersending but there is so much information on the site that people dont bother to read, so its constantly reinventing the wheel, instead of building on whats known.

                          Miss Marple
                          More so lately it seems. Old threads being reignited with comments that show the person hasn't even read the thread let alone many others.
                          G U T

                          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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                          • #14
                            Mary Jane Bury

                            Originally posted by miss marple View Post
                            I don't mean to be condersending but there is so much information on the site that people dont bother to read, so its constantly reinventing the wheel, instead of building on whats known.

                            Miss Marple
                            There is a lot of information on this site but a lot of it's speculation. Also there can only have be one Jack the Ripper out of all the suspects, surely someone doesn't need to know every bit of background on every Ripper suspect. Some suspects seem to be suspects just to sell someone's book.

                            Cheers John

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Only One Ripper

                              Originally posted by miss marple View Post
                              I don't mean to be condersending but there is so much information on the site that people dont bother to read, so its constantly reinventing the wheel, instead of building on whats known.

                              Miss Marple
                              There is a lot of information on this site but a lot of it's speculation. Also there can only have be one Jack the Ripper out of all the suspects, surely someone doesn't need to know every bit of background on every Ripper suspect. Some suspects seem to be suspects just to sell someone's book.

                              Cheers John

                              Comment

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