the key

[Sally]

Of Kelly's known acquaintances, Fleming is a far more compelling "POI" than Barnett. There is evidence that he moved into the heart of the murder district in either August or September of '88, and that he "ill-used" Kelly because she cohabited with Barnett. He was found wandering in 1892 and spent the rest of his life in mental asylums.

Hmm. I feel that between Ordinary Joe and Honest Joe (or even Geo.) there lies a vast chasm of probability which may never be crossed by time, or space.

[Heinrich]

With respect, Heinrich, those are not primary sources.

There is nothing in the way of contemporary evidence to suggest that Barnett hated prostitutes, or that he was "kicked out" by Kelly.

"I have lived with her altogether about 18 months, for the last eight months in Millers Court, until last Tuesday week (30 ulto) when in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her and her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her ..." (Joseph Barnett in a statement to the police)

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Barnett

With these words, Joseph Barnett makes it sound that his leaving was on account of financial stress and Mary Kelly resorting to prostitution but amicable enough and on his own initiative.
It is suggested that money worries and prostitution were two issues between them.

"I left her because she had a person who was a prostitute whom she took in and I objected to her doing so ..." (Joseph Barnett at the inquest of Mary Kelly)

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Joseph_Barnett

This demonstrates a more hostile attitude to Mary Kelly's conduct causing Barnett to express his objection.

By Barnett's own testimony they had arguments: "She had on several occasions asked me to read about the murders she seemed afraid of someone, she did not express fear of any particular individual except when she rowed with me but we always came to terms quickly." (Joseph Barnett at the inquest of Mary Kelly)

It takes little skill to read between the lines from these primary sources.

[Sally]

Skill?

More like wishful thinking.

With respect.

[Wickerman]

...By Barnett's own testimony they had arguments: "She had on several occasions asked me to read about the murders she seemed afraid of someone, she did not express fear of any particular individual except when she rowed with me but we always came to terms quickly." (Joseph Barnett at the inquest of Mary Kelly)

Heinrich.
That line is very ambiguous, if the wording had been:
"she did not express any fear of me except when we rowed", the meaning would have been clear.
As it is written, it appears Barnett is being rather vague by saying "any particular individual", yet being very precise by saying "when she rowed with me".
Due to his reference to reading the newspaper, an alternate rendering might be that it is almost as if Kelly was being very private about her fear of someone else, but she sometimes let it slip when she lost her temper, example, when arguing with Barnett.

As it is we cannot be sure what Barnett was trying to say.

Regards, Jon S.

[Heinrich]

....

As it is we cannot be sure what Barnett was trying to say.

Regards, Jon S.

We can at least be sure that he admits they had rows which is what I was challenged to show by using a primary source.

[GregBaron]

Never a fight....

We can at least be sure that he admits they had rows which is what I was challenged to show by using a primary source.

Has there ever been a couple that didn't have rows?


Greg

[Sally]

Most people have rows with themselves, never mind other people.

In context, what should we expect? Consider the pressure of their domestic situation - even the best matched couple would find that a strain. Kelly was one of two relationships which Barnett had (that we know about). The second of these endured until his death - he obviously was capable of sustaining a relationship over many years - decades in fact. Where's the evidence - any at all - that he had a problem - any problem - with women?

[Wickerman]

It could also be argued that a couple who argue do at least release their tensions, expressing their feelings is a safety valve. Therefore, if Barnett & Kelly never did row then there might be more cause for concern (like a dormant volcano?).

So you see, there are two sides to every coin.

Regards, Jon S.

[Heinrich]

.... Where's the evidence - any at all - that he had a problem - any problem - with women?

According to his own testimony which I quoted above (Post 19), Barret did not approve of women prostitutes.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest[ I would not have said this a few years ago] that during Barnett's questioning, he would have convinced the police not only of his alibi for the early hours of the 9TH , but also from dawn, until the discovery of the body.
I say this because it appears that despite the medical assessment, the police formed an opinion that the murder was committed in daylight,this was the initial opinion, therefore unless they formed that opinion after interviewing Barnett, and never requestioned , Its likely he would have had satisfied them of his whereabouts for the full period.
I do however distrust Barnett, he claims that Kelly feared only him , yet claims that she pushed me in it, [ describing the window breakage] which hardly depicts the actions of a fearful soul.
One has the opinion that he was the typical underdog in the relationship, and as long as he brought home money , or goods, he was in her favour , but despite this she ''could not stand the man'' [ Kelly's words], yet apparently felt some compassion with the words ''I would regret leaving Joe,as he has been good to me'' [ Kelly's words when considering making away with herself]
Its always a dangerous game to 'use' someone in a relationship, especially when a man of the same name is on the scene, ie Fleming, who reacts to Mary's involvement with Barnett [ Kelly's version ] by ill using her.
Was Fleming checked out?
We have no knowledge.
I would say Barnett is likely in the clear, but not certain .
Fleming is a massive suspect.
Not to mention the mysterious drover named Lawrence .
And who was the man who called on her to redeem stolen property, that McCarthy sent packing? [ a watch I believe]
Was he Hutchinson's man? was the watch display for MJk's benefit.?
Was her killer Maxwell's market porter?[ the last person seen with Mary...always a good starting point in a investigation.]
Or are we back to square one... we just dont' know
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

According to his own testimony which I quoted above (Post 19), Barret did not approve of women prostitutes.

Um. How many people do you think did? It doesn't distinguish Barnett. If anything, it speaks of a person who adhered to the social mores of the day - a conventional man.

an ordinary Joe, in fact.

[Sally]

I would suggest[ I would not have said this a few years ago] that during Barnett's questioning, he would have convinced the police not only of his alibi for the early hours of the 9TH , but also from dawn, until the discovery of the body.
I say this because it appears that despite the medical assessment, the police formed an opinion that the murder was committed in daylight,this was the initial opinion, therefore unless they formed that opinion after interviewing Barnett, and never requestioned , Its likely he would have had satisfied them of his whereabouts for the full period.

Exactlly so, Richard. And of his alibi for all the other nights in question. I think it probable - although without direct evidence it must remain conjecture - that an acceptable alibi for the other murder nights in this case constituted more than 'at home with the missus'

It is so obvious that Barnett would have been a person of interest to the police that they must have satisfied themselves of his whereabouts. Yes, alright, 'policing methods' were in their infancy - but that doesn't make the police stupid.

[Heinrich]

Um. How many people do you think did? It doesn't distinguish Barnett. If anything, it speaks of a person who adhered to the social mores of the day - a conventional man.

an ordinary Joe, in fact.

But you asked the question, "Where's the evidence - any at all - that he had a problem - any problem - with women?
You got your answer, Sally.

[Fisherman]

One thing that I always thought belonged to this discussion is what the coroner said when Barnett left the stand at the inquest:
"You have given your evidence very well indeed."

To me, those are words of compassion, felt for a man who had been struck very hard by fate. And I think the foundation for them lay in a stance reached by the authorities after having questioned Barnett thoroughly, resulting in becoming convinced about the man´s innocence. I don´t know of anybody else who received such a line of recognition from the coroner throughout the murder series.

No proof, as usual - but a very fair indicator as far as I´m concerned!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Fiskare! Välkommen tillbaka! Hur var din semester?

Absolutely - I see no reason to think that Barnett's struggle at the inquest wasn't simply due to his having just lost his girlfriend to the Whitechapel Fiend - enough to give anybody a few problems, I should think.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.