the key

[c.d.]

Certainly Barnett cannot be ruled out as a suspect. Nor can anyone for that matter since the killer was never caught.

Being questioned by the police does not rule a suspect out. It would seem however to make that particular suspect less likely to be the murderer.

Wasn't the Yorkshire Ripper repeatedly questioned by the police?

c.d.

[GregBaron]

So much fun...

Certainly Barnett cannot be ruled out as a suspect. Nor can anyone for that matter since the killer was never caught.

Good point c.d. I hereby declare Mrs. Cox cannot be ruled out as a suspect. Can anyone refute me? Sorry Phil, that doesn't make it convincing..........


Greg

Good discussion though agreed........just like to throw stuff out there and watch people attack...it's fun...it's like bating piranhas with tasty worms........

[Sally]

I hereby declare Mrs. Cox cannot be ruled out as a suspect. Can anyone refute me?

Julia Venturney, Greg. She's our man.

[Wickerman]

I don't know, just thinking out loud here but, it might be an idea, since Casebook holds an original position in Ripperological studies, that a committee get together to come up with a legitimate means of categorizing suspects.

Something along the lines of, a Class A Suspect List, will only consist of the names of those suspects which the police considered at the time of the murders.
Unfortunately, this list will be blank as most of the people they suspected were of a temporary nature, once located, investigated, then cleared. There will never be a Class A Suspect.
It might be looked on as a position of honour and act as a reminder to newbies that the police had few/no legitimate suspects in 1888.

A Class B: Suspect, would consist of all those names (Kosminski, Tumblety, Druitt, etc.) given to us by police officials - years if not decades after the fact, and which cannot be verified as a contemporary suspect.

A Class C: Person of Interest: (PoI), would mostly consist of names offered by modern theorists. In this I am thinking of Martin Fido's, David Cohen.
The trouble is, this group would also include such unrealistic proposals like Lewis Carrol, D'Onston, Sickert, and this is where Joe Barnett would fit in.

That said, it would be necessary to distinguish in the ratings the difference between a legitimate Person of Interest and one of the numerous "what ifs", who are not suspects at all because there is nothing to incriminate them, just in the wild imagination of the proposer.

Ok, thats how I feel, sorry for being "off-topic".

Regards, Jon S.

[Heinrich]

....
A. What score? So they fell out, he left - happens all the time (unlike the marvellous getting away with it practiced by sociopaths on an apparently daily basis)

They had a turbulent relationship which appears to have reached a no turning point after Barnett lost his job and Mary Kelly gave him the boot.

B. Barnett was a sociopath? Who says so?

Me for one. Anyone who did to Mary Kelly what was done to her indicates sociopathy. If the same person murdered the other canonical four, then that confirms the disorder.

Doesn't look like one to me - had a regular job, stable domestic setup etc. Not very sociopathiccy looking. Nope.

He lost his license as a fish porter and his job. He reportedly hated prostitutes with a passion and was always quarreling with Mary Kelly before she gave him his running papers.

Idle speculation is fine, sure - it is such a pity when that tiresome little thing known as evidence gets in the way.

Given the evidence we have, Barnett is our man.

[GregBaron]

Unknown perp...

Julia Venturney, Greg. She's our man.

I think you're on to something Sally.......

Wickerman, your idea is a sound one but difficult because of the reasons you mention. In my view there are no good suspects without further evidence. It reminds me of the researcher I saw on tv...(can't recall his name!)........he said if we somehow got the answer(after death perhaps?) we'd all look at each other and go.............. who?

Greg

[Phil H]

The real Jack was, of course, neither Mrs C nor Julia V, but Polly Nichols who cleverly gave herself an alibi by being the first canonical victim.

And I still don't think Barnett should be ruled out.

Wickerman - in another thread recently I listed about 8 categories of suspect - the link is here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=183310#post183310

Phil

[Sally]

The real Jack was, of course, neither Mrs C nor Julia V, but Polly Nichols who cleverly gave herself an alibi by being the first canonical victim.

Well obviously, Phil. Since nobody saw her, she could claim whatever she liked.

Who are we to dispute that?

[Wickerman]

And I still don't think Barnett should be ruled out.

Wickerman - in another thread recently I listed about 8 categories of suspect - the link is here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=183310#post183310

Phil

Thankyou Phil. I intentionally kept it small because it needs to be simple or there will be endless arguments as to which category "my suspect" should be classed as.
I like The Grave Maurice's use of the term, Person of Interest. That is what Joe Barnett is today, not a suspect.
Just because one person suspected him, doesn't make Barnett a Suspect.
I say "one" because subsequent "followers" don't count, it doesn't matter how many people believe in an idea, it is still just an idea. Barnett's position in this murder has not changed due to incriminating evidence coming to light.

In saying that I agree with you, Barnett cannot be ruled out, but I think you should have qualified that by adding, any more than anyone else in her life (McCarthy, Flemming, and dare I say even Hutchinson?).

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

Person of Interest. That is what Joe Barnett is today, not a suspect.


I can live with that.

Incidentally, I do usually link Barnett with his brother and Fleming (I'm not convinced about Hutchinson) when discussing MJK's murder (as I think Sally will recall). I see them as people who were "intimate" with her - friends and close to her rather than clients, as I perceive her murder as different from the others and more likely to be a domestic. I think that explains the timing, the access and thus the location of the killing better than attributing it to JtR.

Phil

[Sally]

Incidentally, I do usually link Barnett with his brother and Fleming (I'm not convinced about Hutchinson) when discussing MJK's murder (as I think Sally will recall). I see them as people who were "intimate" with her - friends and close to her rather than clients, as I perceive her murder as different from the others and more likely to be a domestic. I think that explains the timing, the access and thus the location of the killing better than attributing it to JtR.

Phil - I agree with all that you say (Huzzah! )

I still think though that the 'domestic' angle that your perceive might as easily be because Kelly knew her killer - and that killer was in fact the Whitechapel Fiend. Maybe he saved the best 'til last?

[Ben]

He reportedly hated prostitutes with a passion and was always quarreling

Not much evidence for either of these "reports", Heinrich.

Of Kelly's known acquaintances, Fleming is a far more compelling "POI" than Barnett. There is evidence that he moved into the heart of the murder district in either August or September of '88, and that he "ill-used" Kelly because she cohabited with Barnett. He was found wandering in 1892 and spent the rest of his life in mental asylums.

All the best,
Ben

[Heinrich]

Not much evidence for either of these "reports", Heinrich.
....

"Most killers do turn out to be someone the victim knows, and if Kelly was the only murder victim, Barnett would be the prime suspect. Though Kelly had kicked him out after one of their fights, he had been at the house earlier that day." (Vickie Britton)

http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/4

"He hated prostitutes and constantly tried to convince Kelly to stop soliciting." (Frankie Marcus, Professor Towell)

http://jtrslondon.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/joseph-barnett-lover-killer-or-both/

[Sally]

Heinrich

He hated prostitutes? Apparently not enough to prevent him having a relationship with one.

He hated prostitutes? Well, if your partner was being forced on to the streets by financial hardship such as most of us today cannot possibly imagine, anybody might feel slightly put out - who wants their girlfriend on the streets.

In other words, succinctly so that there is no room for misapprehension - So What?

[Ben]

With respect, Heinrich, those are not primary sources.

There is nothing in the way of contemporary evidence to suggest that Barnett hated prostitutes, or that he was "kicked out" by Kelly.