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  • The Rookie Detective
    Superintendent
    • Apr 2019
    • 2203

    #376
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    I didn't say Schwartz was involved in Stride's attack.

    Dr. Blackwell: I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for its not having been seen by several of those around.

    How could this be possible if Stride was thrown to the footway outside the gates?

    I believe that Stride suffered from Cadaveric Spasm.

    It's a rare phenomenon that occurs at the exact point of death; when the extremities of a murder victim seize up instantly and become locked or frozen in place.
    It's a controversial topic, because it has often been dismissed, yet there are documented cases whereby someone has been murdered and their hands have constricted and grasped whatever was in their hands at the point they were killed.
    Cadaveric Spasm only occurs in cases of extreme stress, shock and/or violence.
    It's an automated response from the brain at the moment it ceases to relay signals to the body i.e. when the brain stem has been severed.
    It also occurs in cases of drowning and hanging.

    Cadaveric Spasm lasts until the onset of Rigor Mortis, after which time it stops.

    Unless the killer placed the Cachou in Stride's hand postmortem, then at the exact point Stride was murdered, she was holding some Cachou in her right hand.

    But crucially, Cadaveric Spasm occurs in cases of extreme violence and when a struggle has ensued.

    This would indicate that Stride fought for her life in the few seconds that she was aware she was about to die.

    A reference perhaps to the alleged Ripper letter concerning the double event, in which the author talks about the first one "squealing a bit" etc...


    There is another tantalisingly interesting aspect associated with the Cadaveric Spasm phenomenon, in that while it almost always affects the hands, it can also impact on the arms and legs.

    it therefore begs the questions...

    How would the killer react to observing Stride's arms being locked into spasm?

    And would it make his intention of post mortem torso mutilation almost impossible?


    There's no evidence that this occurred with Stride's arms, but the fact that she WAS still holding something in her hand after being savagely murdered, is supportive of the idea that Stride suffered from Cadaveric Spasm, and that she was holding Cachou at the exact point the killer almost decapitated her with one cut.


    There's a misconception with Stride's murder in that because she wasn't mutilated, that she didn't suffer as much, but if Cadaveric Spasm was indeed present and a feature of her death, it proves that she felt immense stress and fear at the point she was being murdered, and that she was aware of what was happening to her within the few seconds between the killer attacking and her laying dead on the floor.


    The fact that Stride didn't drop the Cachou is one of the most overlooked clues in the entire case.
    "Great minds, don't think alike"

    Comment

    • c.d.
      Commissioner
      • Feb 2008
      • 6758

      #377
      Hello R.D.,

      Cadaveric Spasm is certainly an interesting subject. And yes, I believe the cachous (yes, there is an s at the end) are important as well. But the question is not how she held them in death but how she held them in life. While she was still alive they (just wrapped in tissue paper) would have had to have survived being thrown to the ground when the natural reaction is to break your fall by spreading out your hands so they take the brunt of the fall. Pushing yourself back up usually involves spreading your hands out in a kneeling position and putting your weight on them. And while it is possible the cachous survived both actions the real problem is how did they survive Stride being pulled into the yard if it was against her will? Surely she must have known bad things were about to happen to her. And here, the natural inclination is to open your hands and use them as leverage to push off your attacker. So, could the cachous (just wrapped in tissue) have survived all three things? Possible but seems highly unlikely to me. The implication is that she took them out after the B.S. man left and she no longer felt threatened.

      So, important? Yes, but in life not death.

      c.d.

      Comment

      • c.d.
        Commissioner
        • Feb 2008
        • 6758

        #378
        Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

        Okay, let's go with this scenario. Our girl Liz is a tough little thing, and she gets up and "dusts herself off", while BS Man wanders off mouthing expletives under his breath. So, what happens between then and the arrival of Diemschitz? Please account for all relevant witnesses.
        I was raised to be polite so I will let you go first. Remember now it is all relevant witnesses.

        c.d.

        Comment

        • FrankO
          Superintendent
          • Feb 2008
          • 2159

          #379
          Originally posted by c.d. View Post
          The implication is that she took them out after the B.S. man left and she no longer felt threatened.
          Hi c.d.,

          I don't know if Mr. BS must necessarily have left, but I agree the implication is that she took them out after he'd thrown her down on the footway and that, at that point, she felt safe or secure of herself enough to take them out. I even think that this very action may have attributed to her killer killing her.

          While she was still alive they (just wrapped in tissue paper) would have had to have survived being thrown to the ground when the natural reaction is to break your fall by spreading out your hands so they take the brunt of the fall.
          I've seen it happen a couple of times that people who were holding on to something fell, but still managed to hold on to whatever they were holding. One time a saw a man who was drunk fall, but keep hold of his glass of beer without even spilling much. Another time it was someone going down a flight of stairs in front of me, but the slipped and slid down one or two steps without letting go of the camera he or she was holding.

          So, important? Yes, but in life not death.
          Agreed all around.

          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

          Comment

          • c.d.
            Commissioner
            • Feb 2008
            • 6758

            #380
            I've seen it happen a couple of times that people who were holding on to something fell, but still managed to hold on to whatever they were holding. One time a saw a man who was drunk fall, but keep hold of his glass of beer without even spilling much. Another time it was someone going down a flight of stairs in front of me, but the slipped and slid down one or two steps without letting go of the camera he or she was holding.

            Yes, Frank those things do happen but the fact that they are commented on and remembered should tell us that they are not the norm.

            c.d.

            Comment

            • FrankO
              Superintendent
              • Feb 2008
              • 2159

              #381
              Originally posted by c.d. View Post
              Yes, Frank those things do happen but the fact that they are commented on and remembered should tell us that they are not the norm.
              Agreed, c.d., but they still offer a solution to the fact that cachous were found in her hand, while falling down and opening your hand to break the fall doesn't.

              "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
              Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

              Comment

              • c.d.
                Commissioner
                • Feb 2008
                • 6758

                #382
                Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                Agreed, c.d., but they still offer a solution to the fact that cachous were found in her hand, while falling down and opening your hand to break the fall doesn't.
                I am not sure I understand you.

                c.d.

                Comment

                • c.d.
                  Commissioner
                  • Feb 2008
                  • 6758

                  #383
                  The point I was trying to make, Frank was that I don't think she had the cachous in her hand during the B.S. man incident but took them out later.

                  Sorry, but I have to go out now.

                  c.d.

                  Comment

                  • FrankO
                    Superintendent
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 2159

                    #384
                    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                    I am not sure I understand you.

                    c.d.
                    All I meant to say was that, even though the 2 examples I posted aren't the norm, they still offer a possible solution for how the cachous remained in Stride's hand.
                    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                    Comment

                    • c.d.
                      Commissioner
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 6758

                      #385
                      Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                      All I meant to say was that, even though the 2 examples I posted aren't the norm, they still offer a possible solution for how the cachous remained in Stride's hand.
                      Agreed. Entirely possible. Like so many things in this case it comes down to possible versus probable.

                      And now I am going out.

                      c.d.

                      Comment

                      • Wickerman
                        Commissioner
                        • Oct 2008
                        • 15009

                        #386
                        Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        We have a report that says Schwartz had been living in Berner St*.
                        Yes, we are given three addresses for Schwartz; Ellen St. by the police, but Berner st. & Backstreet Lane, by the press.

                        One detail that later (modern) generations today may not be aware of is that before the alphanumeric postal codes were invented, private addresses were often described by two street names. This because there were so many smaller streets, it became necessary to also give the next major thoroughfare the small street abuts to, to assist delivery.
                        This is why the example given by the police is written as: 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane.

                        People are more likely to have heard of Backchurch Lane, than for instance, Sander, Fairclough, Gloucester, Boyd, etc. so to abbreviate your address in conversation you might just say you live off Backchurch Lane, or even in Backchurch Lane.
                        But, it also works the other way, for instance anyone who lived towards the east end of Ellen St. (Nos. 53-79), might write their address as 79 Ellen St., Christian St.
                        So this is likely why the press write they "ran him to earth in Backchurch Lane", it was actually Ellen St., off Backchurch Lane.

                        The complication comes in why he is also given a Berner St. address. Is it because he actually did live in Berner st. (and was moving to 22 Ellen St.), or is it because no. 22 Ellen Street can be seen from the end of Berner st., and you naturally walk the length of Berner st. to get to 22 Ellen St., across the road?
                        If it is the former, then that says goodbye to this 'wrong street' argument.
                        If it is the latter, then he could have come down from Commercial road via Grove, Christian or Batty, and/or Providence or Brunswick.

                        So yes, I admit it is a long shot.
                        Though, we do not know where Schwartz was even coming from on Commercial road. Was he walking east or west, or had he crossed from the north side, coming down from roughly the Whitechapel Road area?

                        However, what choice do we have when working under the 'no lies' constraint? Since when does a murder bring out the best of human decency and honesty?
                        No, don't makes excuses the police take ALL statements as given "in good faith" (the witness is not requires to 'swear' to their statement as in a court of law), we have no excuses to do otherwise.

                        And, it is only the police who are in a position to accuse a witness of lying.
                        As indeed some witnesses did, but such a conclusion in their case is legitimate, the police investigate the witnesses story. We are in no position to investigate a witnesses story, so we cannot conclude the witness lied.
                        In most, if not every case where this accusation is made, the theorist has a theory to defend. That is the only reason the accusation is made.


                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment

                        • Wickerman
                          Commissioner
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 15009

                          #387
                          Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                          Dr. Blackwell: I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for its not having been seen by several of those around.
                          The saying is "thumb and forefinger", that is just a typo by someone.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment

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