Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

. . But even though they've already said "goodnight" and instead of the girl going back home, the couple reach the corner of Berner St and Fairclough and turn left and stand around the corner by the board school.
The couple then stand talking for around 20 minutes, and are seen by Brown. They are there until they hear the alarm that someone has been murdered.

This conjecture, above, is how you merge two potential couples into one.

But crucially, as a young couple they are oblivious to anyone around them.
If for example they are kissing or acting in an amorous fashion, they would have little awareness of time frame, or anyone walking past them.

It's possible that they heard or saw nothing because they were too focused on each other.

Yes, 'been there, done that' as they say, a nuclear war could break out and they wouldn't know a things about it.

So I am suggesting that there was only ONE sweetheart couple, but who were unreliable in terms of time approximations owing perhaps to their supposed intimacy.

True, this is entirely possible, but I am taking the reports at face value, devoid of 'what-ifs'.

At the end of the day, it makes little difference whether there was one or two couples. The real point of debate is whether Browns' 'couple' were Stride with a man, or the second 'sweetheart' couple - the pair seen by Mortimer.
If you are correct, and there was only one couple, then Browns 'couple' was not Stride.
I am drawing the same conclusion (ie; Brown did not see Stride), but also separating the sweetheart couples into two.

[Wickerman]

. . . Also we have to fit in Stride and overcoat man. It surely was Stride as she would have seemed oder than the other ‘girlfriend’ even without a look at her face she would have appeared older. So 3 couples if not 4 or even 5!

I don't know if you're aware, but with the exception of Mary Kelly, because she was found by people who knew her. The other victims; Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes & Stride were all judged to be younger than their true ages when first discovered.

Diemschutz thought Stride was 30 yrs old, when she really was 45.

The fact that Brown thought the girl he saw was younger, is only consistent with what we know.

[The Rookie Detective]

I fully agree, but I am pointing out you are placing them a lot more than 50 yds away.
I know 20 yds is more accurate, but that does not apply to the first couple (12:00-12:30), who did not have the time to stand for 20 minutes, as well as walk up and down Commercial road.
At the pace a dating couple would walk, it must have taken them 4-5 mins to walk down Berner St., and then walk back to the top to say goodnight.
From Commercial road to Fairclough st. the distance on the Insurance Maps is 430 ft.
They only had 30 mins together, given the overall distance described, cannot include standing in one spot for 20 minutes.

Ok...

What I am trying to say is that...


The girl who left her house alone on Berner Street and then walked north past the yard at a "few minutes before midnight," and then walked up to the top of the street (Commercial Road junction) to meet her man circa midnight, and who both then went for a walk short together along Commercial Road (likely westwards to the end of Commercial Rd i.e. as far as the Whitechapel road) and then back again to the corner of Berner St, and who then saw a man walk from east to west along Commercial Rd towards Aldgate, just before the couple said "Goodnight" and then BOTH walking back down Berner Street TOGETHER... and thus BACK PAST THE YARD (because the girl lived in Berner St south of the murder site...


...were also the same couple that then stood for a additional 20 minutes or so on the corner of Fairclough St and who are then present on the corner both before and after the alleged time of the murder, and who subsequently speak to Mortimer and the press etc...


A couple saying "Goodnight" doesn't automatically mean that they part ways immediately.

And we know that the girl stated she walked back down Berner Street after their walk along Commercial Road and back.
It's precisely this action of the girl needing to walk back down Berner Street to get home that then validates the idea that there was only 1 couple and not 2.

So the 30 minutes from "midnight to half past" relates to the time between the girl leaving her house to the point they say "Goodnight" at the top of Berner Street.

This does NOT then include the additional 20 minutes or so that the couple then stand on the corner of Fairclough Street.

So we have...


23.55pm - the girl leaves her house on Berner St

23.57pm - she walks past the yard, and see it empty.

Midnight - she meets her young man. They embrace and discuss what they want to do.

00.02am - they set off on a slow romantic walk west along Commercial road

00.12am - they reach the junction with Whitechapel Road

00.14am - after a brief stop and embrace, they turn and head back again along Commercial road towards Berner St.

00.24am - they reach the corner of Berner Street

00.25am - they witness a man walk aoing the Commercial Rd heading towards Aldgate

00.26am - after an embrace and a kiss "goodnight" they head back down Berner St

00.29am - they walk back past the murder site.

00.30am - instead of the girl going back to her house, she and her young man walk around the corner by the board school and into Fairclough St. They stop and stand on the corner of Fairclough St by the board school.

The couple then stay on the corner for around 20 minutes and are seen by Brown at 00.50am, just at the point when the girl tells her man "no, not tonight, some other night."

After a romantic walk and whispering niceties in her ear, being a typical young hot blooded male; he presumes that sex is on the cards.

But she tells him "...some other night" to indicate they will meet again at another time.

00.51am - the girl parts ways with her young man, and goes home to her house in Berner Street.

00.52am - feeling rejected and frustrated, the young man then gestures to walk BACK UP BERNER ST to walk back the way he came, and then go home.

00.53am - the young man walks back PAST THE YARD/ MURDER SITE


...

And he sees Stride standing in the yard.



Stride had just left the club from the side door. She had been talking with Parcelman, a club member, and had gone with him into the club via the yard entrance just after PC Smith saw them talking earlier.



HE KILLS STRIDE


OR


HE WITNESSES STRIDE BEING KILLED BY PARCELMAN



Thoughts?

[Wickerman]

Ok...

What I am trying to say is that...


The girl who left her house alone on Berner Street and then walked north past the yard at a "few minutes before midnight," and then walked up to the top of the street (Commercial Road junction) to meet her man circa midnight, and who both then went for a walk short together along Commercial Road (likely westwards to the end of Commercial Rd i.e. as far as the Whitechapel road) and then back again to the corner of Berner St, and who then saw a man walk from east to west along Commercial Rd towards Aldgate, just before the couple said "Goodnight" and then BOTH walking back down Berner Street TOGETHER... and thus BACK PAST THE YARD (because the girl lived in Berner St south of the murder site...


...were also the same couple that then stood for a additional 20 minutes or so on the corner of Fairclough St and who are then present on the corner both before and after the alleged time of the murder, and who subsequently speak to Mortimer and the press etc...


A couple saying "Goodnight" doesn't automatically mean that they part ways immediately.

I disagree.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You cannot have a couple walk back to the location where they met, say "goodnight", then continue their date for another 30 minutes or more.
You are cheating the evidence Chris.

This is what happens when someone tries to force-fit the evidence.

[The Rookie Detective]

I disagree.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You cannot have a couple walk back to the location where they met, say "goodnight", then continue their date for another 30 minutes or more.
You are cheating the evidence Chris.

This is what happens when someone tries to force-fit the evidence.

But after they said "Goodnight" they both walked back down Berner Street.

That's my point.

The girl must have walked home again

And if her young man accompanied her, then he would have walked back with her.

If, he didn't walk back down Berner St with her, and she walked back down Berner St alone, then I accept your point.

But based on the syntex of the wording, it is clear that they said "goodnight" and then walked back down Berner St together so that he could take her home.

We know she lived south of the murder site, because she passed it on the way up.

So, this fact needs addressing.


If she walked back down Berner St alone, then I am wrong.

If she walked back with her young man back down Berner St, then the couple then become viable to be considered as the same couple who then stood on the corner for around 20 minutes.


The time Stride was murdered isn't the same as the time she was found.
The same applies to a couple saying "goodnight"...is not necessarily the same as a couple parting ways and each going to their separate homes for the night.


The issue with the Ripper case as a whole, is that very few of us are prepared to think outside the box in order to try and explain the anomalies that riddle this case.

What I have presented is possible and viable based on interpretations of the known evidence.

I am basing my hypothesis on the given data, ergo, the young girl states she walks back again down Berner St.

The key question is; did she walk back down Berner St ALONE after saying "goodnight," or with her young man?


If the latter, then my hypothesis stands and is a viable option to explain what happened.

[seanr]

Hi Sean,

There is a reference to the Police checking Goldstein's alibi with the owner of the Spectacle Alley café, but I can't locate it at present.

What choice did the police have but to accept it? Goldstein said he was there and the owner confirmed his presence, and Goldstein had the cigarette boxes. If the police did question how long he was there, and the owner said he didn't know, what resort did they have after that? The police would have had to have had evidence to show they were both lying.

Cheers, George

I suppose it all depends who owned the café in Spectacle Alley and whether it was someone who the Police should have treated with some suspicion.

I wonder what Sagar would have to say. Spectacle Alley being walking distance from Butchers Row, but obviously over the border in H Division's territory.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

At the end of the day, it makes little difference whether there was one or two couples. The real point of debate is whether Browns' 'couple' were Stride with a man, or the second 'sweetheart' couple - the pair seen by Mortimer.

Can you quote Mortimer implying she had seen the couple she referred to, prior to the murder?

The fact that Brown thought the girl he saw was younger, is only consistent with what we know.

JB: I am almost certain it was the deceased.

Younger than who?

[Wickerman]

But after they said "Goodnight" they both walked back down Berner Street.

That's my point.

No Chris.
That is not what her statement says.
She mentions walking down Berner st. before they said 'Goodnight'.

The girl must have walked home again

Yes, that is what she implies, she walked back alone.
It would be expected her boyfriend might accompany her to her door, yet she did walk up the street about midnight by herself.
Maybe her father did not like her boyfriend?
Regardless, it appears from her words that she walked home alone.

If, he didn't walk back down Berner St with her, and she walked back down Berner St alone, then I accept your point.

That is my point of view Chris.

But based on the syntex of the wording, it is clear that they said "goodnight" and then walked back down Berner St together so that he could take her home.

"I met my young man (she proceeded) at thetop of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Isn't that clear enough?, they are at the top of Berner st. in order to see the man walk passed. Therefore it was after their walk down Berner St. (and back), when she says 'goodnight'.

[GBinOz]

From the Morning Advertiser, Oct 3

From Swanson's report:

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before. [Here there is a marginal note. – “Who saw this man go down Berner St. or did he come forward to clear himself in case any questions might be asked."]

That is all we know.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for providing that reference. Is it just me, or does there seem to be a note of suspicion in that marginal entry?

Cheers, George