Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

And yet he was involved with the club itself, because Wess went with him to the police to give his statement.

And so, he did have a connection to the yard.

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

[Wickerman]

Which leads me to believe that Stride and Parcelman were further up Berner St than Smith remembered them being.

It's the way it is worded that is the problem.
If we read other press reports, Lave apparently said: " . . nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

Which tells us he did see people, but none of those people were acting suspiciously.
Which allows for Stride & Parcelman being there.

[Wickerman]

Agreed. It could hardly be clearer.



The notion that the other couple were seen by Mortimer from her doorstep, has been retired.

Oh right - silly me . . .

[Wickerman]

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate." . .

The chronology in this statement tells us that the...

young girl passed the yard a few minutes before midnight.
This means the yard was situated between her residence and the corner of Commercial Road, where she met her BF.

That means that after the couple said "goodnight" that the young girl had to walk back again and back past the yard; ergo, the murder site.[/quote]

All agreed up to that point.

But, did she walk back down Berner Street alone (as she had on her way up Berner St to meet her BF on the corner of Berner St?
Or did she walk back down Berner St with her BF?

We have to assume she did, this was not the middle of the day when lots of people may have been coming and going.
Victorian customs for a female out at night would not permit her to be seen walking at night with a stranger.

Based on them seeing a man walk along Commercial Road towards Aldgate just before they said "goodnight," it would appear that they did indeed stay at the junction of Commercial Road.

Yes, they said goodnight at the Commercial St. end of Berner St.

BUT... the statement specially says ... and down Berner Street.
This is stated the context of them BOTH walking down Berner Street together.

I agree, I see where you are going.
Yes, they could have said goodnight at the bottom end of Berner St., the "just before" would then mean just before they turned to walk back down Berner St. to say goodnight at her door.

. . if that's the case, then it needs to be established on which corner the couple were standing for around "20 minutes"

Either the Commercial Road junction or the Fairclough St Junction.

This is where I have to disagree.
There are two paragraphs that deal with this couple (my couple #2), and they say nothing about standing around for 20 minutes.

I think it is only fair that you first establish all four paragraphs refer to one couple, before you use a statement belonging to the first couple, as if it was spoken by the second couple.
The hurdle you must remove is the second couple (first two paragraphs) suggest this couple were on the Fairclough corner both before, and after the murder, estimated as about 20 minutes - ie; 12:45-01:05 am)

Whereas, the first couple (third and fourth paragraphs) provide a time window of 12:00-12:30 am.

They may have indeed said "goodnight" at the top of the street, and thus wouldn't have been able to hear anything going on in the yard anyway.

It's just that I am surprised that a boyfriend would leave his girlfriend to walk home (down Berner St.) alone. Decency demands you walk your girlfriend to her door at the end of the date.

Which makes the statement of "We heard nothing whatever" as a rather pointless statement, unless they were standing at the junction of Fairclough Street.

Well, because that statement is offered at the beginning of the paragraph, it may mean 'we heard nothing, whatever, throughout the date walking up and down'.

The same statement is also pointless if the couple left the area by 12.30am.

The beginning of the third paragraph explains that remark:
"It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o'clock".

The third & fourth paragraphs did come from the same article, the Echo. So they are to be taken together.
The line is provided by the journalist, which tells us he was under the impression the murder took place between 12:00-01:00 am.

One source states the couple were no than than "20 yards" from the yard.
another source states no more than "50 yards" from the yard.

Which demonstrates the extent of assumption by the journalists - it is actually 20 yds (60ft) from Dutfields Yard, on the west side, to to the corner of Berner & Fairclough, on the east side.

It would appear more logical that the couple had gone by 12.30am, in which case, the couple on the corner seen by Brown were Stride and her killer.

You have yet to remove that hurdle, so we can't apply logic yet.

This is because Brown swore on oath he was almost certain it was Stride.

Like Mary Malcolm did?
Swearing an oath does not make your statement correct.

Schwartz on the other hand witnesses an assault BEFORE Brown's sighting, meaning that what BS man saw was essentially irrelevant anyway, in terms of chronology.

You certainly do have a problem including Schwartz's scenario, either Brown is wrong, or Schwartz, with regard to timing.

But of course, if the couple on the corner wasn't Stride, then the couple seen by Brown had to have been the same couple who are referred to as having been on the corner both before and after the murder, and who claimed "We heard nothing whatever."


And if they didn't hear anything...then the entire Schwartz incident didn't happen.

The trouble with the Stride murder, is that you can't have your cake and eat it.

If we accept everything we are told, then there were 4 different couples all trying to fit into the same narrative...

Brown's couple
Sweetheart couple
Packers couple
Stride and her killer.


Too many players in this game.

Yes.

So...after the girl said goodnight to her BF, she was either at the top of Berner Street, or on the corner by the boardschool in Fairclough st (out of sight but not audibility from the yard)...

...she then goes home alone.

Otherwise, she wouldn't have needed to say "goodnight" to her BF

Her house is located SOUTH of the yard, because on the way up to meet her BF, she PASSES the yard. (her words)

So, where did she live in Berner Street?

Unless of course she was still on the corner of the street with her BF after the murder?

Lots to unravel here still.

We only seem to have real conflict when we include Schwartz's statement.

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

The front entrance to the club was closed at the time.
The side entrance to the club was through the yard
The entrance to that yard was on Berner Street
The club itself was on Berner Street.
The club's southern wall was in the yard.
Goldstein was a club member
Goldstein was seen walking past the club by Mortimer
Goldstein was seen within 10 minutes of the murder.
The murder occurred in the yard.
The only way into the club at the time of the murder, was through the yard.
Mortimer sees Goldstein walking "hurriedly"
Mortimer sees him look up at the club; ergo, in the direction of the club.
Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer.
Mortimer sees Goldstein when he's walking between her door and the club; ergo, south of her location.
Goldstein goes to the police and gives a statement
Wess, who runs the joint, accompanies him; ergo, he gets involved.
Goldstein is a member of the club.


The above is indicative of a man who had a connection to the yard by proxy.


There is of course a simpler explanation


Mortimer saw Goldstein walking "hurriedly" after he had just murdered Stride in the yard.
Members of the club then persuade Mortimer to say that he was seen BEFORE he got as far as the yard.


But the distance between the yard and Mortimer's house is a matter of around 20 yards.

That would take no more than 5 seconds to walk if someone was walking "hurriedly"

That also means that there was no more than a 5 second gap between Mortimer seeing Goldstein and him having passes the yard as he headed south.

But if we imagine the scene...

Mortimer opens her door and Goldstein is...?

Well he can't be within a few feet of her, because when she opened the door, he would have at least acknowledged that someone had opened their door.

But there's no suggestion that he was aware that Mortimer had seen him.

That means that Goldstein had to be a certain distance from Mortimer's door.

And yet she sees him walk hurriedly and look up at the club.

So he has to be between her house and the club AND also not close enough to her to realise she had seen him/or be aware of her presence as she was at her door.

That then reduces the 20 yard window considerably.


And so... COULD Mortimer have assumed Goldstein had walked past her door and then past the club etc.. when he had instead just left the yard and Mortimer saw him at the precise moment he was back on the pavement?

Does Mortimer's interpretation of what she thought she saw inadvertently get Goldstein off the hook?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I realise that I’m jumping in and that I haven’t read back through the posts except for a skim but surely the woman that spoke to Mortimer had to have been Edward Spooner’s lady friend?

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

The front entrance to the club was closed at the time.
The side entrance to the club was through the yard
The entrance to that yard was on Berner Street
The club itself was on Berner Street.
The club's southern wall was in the yard.
Goldstein was a club member
Goldstein was seen walking past the club by Mortimer
Goldstein was seen within 10 minutes of the murder.
The murder occurred in the yard.
The only way into the club at the time of the murder, was through the yard.
Mortimer sees Goldstein walking "hurriedly"
Mortimer sees him look up at the club; ergo, in the direction of the club.
Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer.
Mortimer sees Goldstein when he's walking between her door and the club; ergo, south of her location.
Goldstein goes to the police and gives a statement
Wess, who runs the joint, accompanies him; ergo, he gets involved.
Goldstein is a member of the club.


The above is indicative of a man who had a connection to the yard by proxy.


There is of course a simpler explanation


Mortimer saw Goldstein walking "hurriedly" after he had just murdered Stride in the yard.
Members of the club then persuade Mortimer to say that he was seen BEFORE he got as far as the yard.


But the distance between the yard and Mortimer's house is a matter of around 20 yards.

That would take no more than 5 seconds to walk if someone was walking "hurriedly"

That also means that there was no more than a 5 second gap between Mortimer seeing Goldstein and him having passes the yard as he headed south.

But if we imagine the scene...

Mortimer opens her door and Goldstein is...?

Well he can't be within a few feet of her, because when she opened the door, he would have at least acknowledged that someone had opened their door.

But there's no suggestion that he was aware that Mortimer had seen him.

That means that Goldstein had to be a certain distance from Mortimer's door.

And yet she sees him walk hurriedly and look up at the club.

So he has to be between her house and the club AND also not close enough to her to realise she had seen him/or be aware of her presence as she was at her door.

That then reduces the 20 yard window considerably.


And so... COULD Mortimer have assumed Goldstein had walked past her door and then past the club etc.. when he had instead just left the yard and Mortimer saw him at the precise moment he was back on the pavement?

Does Mortimer's interpretation of what she thought she saw inadvertently get Goldstein off the hook?

[The Rookie Detective]

Posts 230 and 232 are duplicates, sorry!

Not sure what happened there?!

[Lewis C]

Do I think that?

Perhaps read #157 again.

Switching Schwartz and Goldstein around causes several problems, the most obvious being that you must suppose the BS was the killer, with all the associated problems.

If you don't think that, then I misunderstand this statement of yours from post #204: "In those 10 minutes, Stride must make her way to the gateway, wait for BS Man, be killed, and her blood trickle down to the side door of club, and Fanny must be at her doorstep to see a man walk down the street carrying a black bag, but see no one enter the gates."

I do agree that if the Schwartz incident occurred after the Brown sighting, then it would be hard for there to be enough time for anyone but BS man to be her killer, assuming that the woman in the Schwartz incident is Stride. About the only way that he wouldn't be her killer would be if he left the area immediately, and either Pipe Man or someone nearby that we don't know about killed her.