A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[caz]

I'm sure you have heard the old adage "put your best foot forward." If she were soliciting and trying to attract men why would she not want to look attractive? Maybe a attract a steady customer or maybe a sugar daddy of sorts. What would the disadvantages of being decently dressed and having fresh breath be?

c.d.

Quite so.

But the same thing applies if Stride wasn't open to offers - that night or any other night. She wasn't with Kidney any more and she was out on a Saturday night. What possible reason would any woman have had for going outdoors looking rough as a badger's arse and smelling bad if she could have done something about it?

I have no doubt many of the men she encountered would have reeked of beer and tobacco without giving a tuppenny damn, but that would have been par for the course.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Compared to an average LVP street walker.

And you would know that, because...?

The average street walker would, then as now, have made herself as wholesome as her means allowed, in order to attract paying customers.

Same goes for Stride, whether or not she was open to offers when she went out that night.

None of whom are in that category.

What 'category'??

You mean women?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

She could have been robbed by her killer. I don't know about kissing but I would imagine some talking taking place first. In that case, fresh breath would be helpful.

c.d.

I presume you don't believe the BS man was her killer. In that case, does the murderer do the robbing before the murder, or after the murder but before the interruption?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have no theory. I don't know if Stride was soliciting or not. I thought the discussion was related to her attire. What happened?

c.d.

I'm coming to this from the broader question of whether we have good reason to suppose Stride really stood in the gateway to solicit, or for whatever purpose anyone can come up with that a reasonable case can be made for. To answer your question ...

And again, if she were soliciting, can you tell us why being nicely dressed and having fresh breath would be a disadvantage?

c.d.

I've already accepted those as advantages in #307. The problem with the soliciting theory is that that's about all it has going for it - otherwise, I presume you would have a theory. On the other hand, it has major problems. Firstly, a flower, cachous and (almost) brushed clothes would not be a disadvantage for a woman socialising with one or more men - which we have evidence for - or for going to the club to obtain work, which at least provides a reason for her being on Berner St. Then there is no money on her problem, no open pubs to spend money on, and a dubious sale of grapes was purchased by a man. Then there is the deserted street problem. Then there is the witness testimony that denied the yard or even close to the yard was ever used by prostitutes. Then there is the lack of noise in the back of the yard problem, which leads to the issue of where Stride might have intended to take punters. Last but not least is the problem of how Parcleman seamlessly fits into the Schwartz/soliciting theory.

The problem with Schwartz is that his story only makes sense when taken out of context.

[c.d.]

And again, if she were soliciting, can you tell us why being nicely dressed and having fresh breath would be a disadvantage?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Had she been there to solicit, should we expect those advantages to have resulted in her having more than zero money on her person? How long do you suppose she had been soliciting that night, for no return? As for the fresh breath, was she planning on kissing her clients?

She could have been robbed by her killer. I don't know about kissing but I would imagine some talking taking place first. In that case, fresh breath would be helpful.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I have no theory. I don't know if Stride was soliciting or not. I thought the discussion was related to her attire. What happened?

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm sure you have heard the old adage "put your best foot forward." If she were soliciting and trying to attract men why would she not want to look attractive? Maybe a attract a steady customer or maybe a sugar daddy of sorts. What would the disadvantages of being decently dressed and having fresh breath be?

c.d.

Had she been there to solicit, should we expect those advantages to have resulted in her having more than zero money on her person? How long do you suppose she had been soliciting that night, for no return? As for the fresh breath, was she planning on kissing her clients?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks for that, Caz. Good to get a woman's perspective and help clear that up. That issue was always overblown in my opinion.

When Stride was quietly talking to the man with the parcel, was she soliciting at that point? Just a few minutes later she's standing in the gateway doing just that, according to your theory. So, what happened? Did she go down the yard with that man, or did she wrap up the friendly chat and tell the man she was going to stand "over there", and sell herself?

[c.d.]

I'm sure you have heard the old adage "put your best foot forward." If she were soliciting and trying to attract men why would she not want to look attractive? Maybe a attract a steady customer or maybe a sugar daddy of sorts. What would the disadvantages of being decently dressed and having fresh breath be?

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

All that effort?

Compared to an average LVP street walker.

I have never known a woman of any class, who would venture out on a Saturday night without making the least effort with their appearance, in accordance with their means.

A clothes brush, a pack of cachous and a single flower [all of which could have been begged, borrowed or given] are hardly sure signs that Stride was making a greater effort on the night she was murdered than she would have done on any other night of the year. It's just what women do.

All those posting here who have any doubts about this could ask their mother, wife, girlfriend, sisters, daughters or aunties.

Love,

Caz
X

None of whom are in that category.

[c.d.]

Thanks for that, Caz. Good to get a woman's perspective and help clear that up. That issue was always overblown in my opinion.

It seems like there are a lot of things that men don't understand about women. We are but clueless oafs when it comes to the fairer sex.

c.d.

[caz]

Thanks. Like most theories here, probably wrong, however it does at least offer an explanation as to why Stride had gone to all that effort with her appearance. Contrast this with "Stride was standing in the gateway because she was soliciting", which, rather than attempting to explain, ignores the issue of Stride's efforts to look good.

All that effort?

I have never known a woman of any class, who would venture out on a Saturday night without making the least effort with their appearance, in accordance with their means.

A clothes brush, a pack of cachous and a single flower [all of which could have been begged, borrowed or given] are hardly sure signs that Stride was making a greater effort on the night she was murdered than she would have done on any other night of the year. It's just what women do.

All those posting here who have any doubts about this could ask their mother, wife, girlfriend, sisters, daughters or aunties.

Love,

Caz
X

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That's an excellent post

Thanks. Like most theories here, probably wrong, however it does at least offer an explanation as to why Stride had gone to all that effort with her appearance. Contrast this with "Stride was standing in the gateway because she was soliciting", which, rather than attempting to explain, ignores the issue of Stride's efforts to look good.

The claim that "women and girls" were brought there, would suggest that Stride may have been brought there for precisely that reason; to entertain the men after hours and put on a performance for them.
Perhaps she was instructed to wait outside until she was called in?

I'm happy to accept that the purpose of the evening at the club was just what the members said - political discussion, and afterwards, just various conversations and some singing. More quotes from the Irish Times ...

Several members of the club, including the steward, stated that the yard adjoining the building had never been frequented by unfortunate women. The traffic there is constant, and continues almost all the night through.

This begs the question; how did Stride manage to go seemingly unseen by anyone at the club? Presumably the constant traffic in and out of the yard was not apparent that night. Had she been in the back of the yard at any point, with whoever, she/they must have been quiet...

The windows of the clubroom are within ten feet of the spot, whilst the cottages stand almost opposite and command a complete view of it. None of the occupants of these houses, however, heard the faintest noise in the course of Saturday night or Sunday morning. The residents in the yard are tailors and cigarette makers, and they are not in the habit of retiring very early. A reporter who made inquiry among them, however, was unable to find any person who had either seen or heard anything suspicious.

Where does that leave Eagle? A man who leaves the club with his sweetheart, dropping her back home, but rather than spending the night with her, he returns to the club...for what reason? could he have gone back to the club because of Stride? Could Eagle have dropped his girlfriend back home and then returned to the club because he wanted to try it on with Stride?
Could she have rejected Eagle, on the basis that she had seen him leave with his girlfriend earlier?

Once again from the Oct 1 IT:

Morris Eagle, one of the members of the club, left Berner street about 12 o'clock, and after taking his sweetheart home returned to the club at about twenty minutes to one with the intention of having supper.

Or perhaps Lave went outside and saw her. He may have talked with her and/or possibly known she was a prostitute (despite her efforts to dress and impress) and assumed he could have his way with her.



Could she have bought the Cachou with her in preparation for the evening ahead, ergo, she wanted to freshen her breath for whatever reason.

An after-hours performance for a group of men who were mainly radical in their political views.


Interesting possibilities

Do you think you've given Eagle and Lave a strong enough motive for murdering Elizabeth?

[The Rookie Detective]

Stride's presence is the yard might have seemed out of place compared to a weekend or two earlier. An Irish Times reporter was on Berner St around dawn on the morning of the double event:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

Perhaps Stride had dressed up because she wanted to be one of the women brought to the club for the men's entertainment. That is, she went to the club for the purpose of auditioning. That might explain why she arrived on the scene after the event had finished, and most of the attendees had left. Does her effort with her appearance suggest she was intending to make a good first impression?

That's an excellent post

The claim that "women and girls" were brought there, would suggest that Stride may have been brought there for precisely that reason; to entertain the men after hours and put on a performance for them.
Perhaps she was instructed to wait outside until she was called in?

Where does that leave Eagle? A man who leaves the club with his sweetheart, dropping her back home, but rather than spending the night with her, he returns to the club...for what reason? could he have gone back to the club because of Stride? Could Eagle have dropped his girlfriend back home and then returned to the club because he wanted to try it on with Stride?
Could she have rejected Eagle, on the basis that she had seen him leave with his girlfriend earlier?

Or perhaps Lave went outside and saw her. He may have talked with her and/or possibly known she was a prostitute (despite her efforts to dress and impress) and assumed he could have his way with her.

Could she have bought the Cachou with her in preparation for the evening ahead, ergo, she wanted to freshen her breath for whatever reason.

An after-hours performance for a group of men who were mainly radical in their political views.


Interesting possibilities


Chris