The broken window

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

This news clip corresponds to your post about the 3 o'clock timing. Also of interest is the last line about the light being extiguished about 2 o'clock. [off topic for the window, sorry]

As far as the window trick. I read a news clip recently (trying to find it) that said they had to reach through the window where a bar rested by the door. The bar was used to reach and undo the latch.

Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888

Thanks Jerry. I wonder how they knew how the light was out at 2? It's like this...Bowyer is in the yard at 3 am...around the time Prater here's the cries of "Murder". A coincidence?

Rosella,
I'm not sure what your saying...Frank Carter was a shopkeeper? I thought he worked for the Royal Engineers? Jerry...have you looked into a Royal Engineers connection to the Whitehall building?

If the 5 woman had all lived close by...could they have had a pimp in common? I suspect McCarthy is Kelly's pimp and if Bowyer had been in the court at 3 am and he was aware Kelly was with a client..would he have returned in the morning for McCarthy's cut?

[Rosella]

Kate was a hawker and hustler, always on the lookout to make some pennies. Maybe she had called in at his shop for a few slices of cheese and spun him a story about how she would help by handing out a handful of his 'bills' the equivalent of leaflets, around Spitalfields for him and took his card (which would have been a business one if he was a shopkeeper, there were both trade and personal cards.) This was perhaps in the hope of exchange of a penny or two.

On the other hand, maybe a handbill had been left on his shop counter with a few business cards. They were often very nicely designed and colourful and perhaps Kate just liked them.

Are we talking about Bowyer Snr or Jnr? The only cutters I've ever heard of worked in the tailoring 'sweated' trades, for a pittance.

Jerry, that is interesting about a possible bar arrangement for the door. You'd still have to be something of a contortionist, I should think.

[jerryd]

Thanks Rosella. I'm not understanding why Kate would have his card? Was he John and if so why would he give her his card? Was it a business card and were they used in 1888? Or was it a type of personal identification card and in that case was it stolen from Frank Carter? Was it common for prostitutes to pickpocket their clients? Any insight into why Kate would be in possession of this card would be appreciated.

About Bowyer, let's not forget he was in miller's court at 3 am and according to this post copied from a jar post by debra he claimed to see a man:

"The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."

So Bowyer was the last known person in Miller's court (?) and the first person to find Kelly butchered. I don't think Bowyer has been explored enough as a suspect from what I can tell. Here is the thread on bowyer in the court at 3 am. His father's profession is listed as "cutter". Can anyone explain what that means to me? http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12414&page=2

Rocky,

This news clip corresponds to your post about the 3 o'clock timing. Also of interest is the last line about the light being extiguished about 2 o'clock. [off topic for the window, sorry]

As far as the window trick. I read a news clip recently (trying to find it) that said they had to reach through the window where a bar rested by the door. The bar was used to reach and undo the latch.

Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888

[RockySullivan]

Thanks Rosella. I'm not understanding why Kate would have his card? Was he John and if so why would he give her his card? Was it a business card and were they used in 1888? Or was it a type of personal identification card and in that case was it stolen from Frank Carter? Was it common for prostitutes to pickpocket their clients? Any insight into why Kate would be in possession of this card would be appreciated.

About Bowyer, let's not forget he was in miller's court at 3 am and according to this post copied from a jar post by debra he claimed to see a man:

"The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."

So Bowyer was the last known person in Miller's court (?) and the first person to find Kelly butchered. I don't think Bowyer has been explored enough as a suspect from what I can tell. Here is the thread on bowyer in the court at 3 am. His father's profession is listed as "cutter". Can anyone explain what that means to me? http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=12414&page=2

[Robert St Devil]

...and unlock anything. The door must have been left on the latchs.

...or else how would she have been able to let the man with blotchy skin into her room if it hadn't been "on the latch"?

[Rosella]

I'm looking at the photo of Mary's room in Millers Court in the JTR A-Z now, the photo taken showing the relevant distance between door and smaller window with furthest pane. Even if it was the nearest pane that was broken that's an extraordinary length for a human arm to stretch to the door, (even if all the glass in the pane had gone which it hadn't.) You'd need simian length limbs to reach through and unlock anything. The door must have been left on the latch.

PS By the way, regarding Frank Carter (not Cater) Neil in 'Capturing Jack the Ripper' noted that there was found, among Kate's possessions, 'a printed handbill and according to a Press report, a printed card for 'Frank Carter, 305 Bethnal Green Rd.'

Tradesmen, circuses and shows, auctioneers and shopkeepers etc had printed handbills (advertisements of forthcoming attractions,sales.) That wouldn't have included a member of Her Majesty's forces. Royal Engineers wouldn't have advertised their services.

[Wickerman]

The smallest window was nearest the downspout, the broken pane was the farthest pane of the smallest window.

Charles Ledger put in and proved plans ----
Charles Ledger, Inspector G division, I have made plans produced and they are correct plans of the premises. Thomas Bowyer, I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one.

[DJA]

"smallest"....."near the entrance"......Inquest.

[packers stem]

Both damaged panes were on the right side.

The lower one was missing about one third,from the top right down.

No DJA
Bowyer looked through the 'farthest' lower pane

[DJA]

I haven't,however Tom was offered the screenwriter's job when he was working on it.

[RockySullivan]

I agree totally DJA
Not to mention his 'centre of attention' press statements followed by contradictory inquest testimony

read bank holiday murders?

[packers stem]

Just for jolly,imagine the scenario where McCarthy has been forewarned not to interfere with anything that happens.

I agree totally DJA
Not to mention his 'centre of attention' press statements followed by contradictory inquest testimony

[RockySullivan]

Wasn't referring to that thread.
Meant the site.

Um....not tellin'. Exists though.
Most people take no notice of this guy.
Closest I've seen.

Suspect Frank Carter was muscle for Liz and Kate.
BS man.

Got ourselves a regular pierre over here! ha ha thanks for the info on carter though its interesting.

[DJA]

I don't see any individual's name mentioned in that thread..it's a discussion of the railway lines. Where's the guy was actually jack the ripper? Has anyone researched Frank Carter? What's your opinion on how Kate got his card? If Carter worked for the royal engineers in what capacity would that be connected to the railway lines in the jerryd thread? From the book link i posted it seems that the royal engineers did inspections on the railways to see if they were up to standard. off topic perhaps but it's the broken window theory.

Rosella, if McCarthy was part of a criminal organization, or was atlas familiar with some involved, the reward might not be worth his neck. Maybe he just wasn't a snitch?

Wasn't referring to that thread.
Meant the site.

Um....not tellin'. Exists though.
Most people take no notice of this guy.
Closest I've seen.

Suspect Frank Carter was muscle for Liz and Kate.
BS man.

[RockySullivan]

Dunno.

That jtrforums contains one of the funniest discussions on the net.

Two well known Ripperologists discussing the guy who was actually Jack the Ripper.

They know something's rotten in Denmark (cheese joke ),however they haven't done their research. Fail!

Bit like finding a Frank Cater.....but different.

Unsure what this has to do with two broken window panes.

I don't see any individual's name mentioned in that thread..it's a discussion of the railway lines. Where's the guy was actually jack the ripper? Has anyone researched Frank Carter? What's your opinion on how Kate got his card? If Carter worked for the royal engineers in what capacity would that be connected to the railway lines in the jerryd thread? From the book link i posted it seems that the royal engineers did inspections on the railways to see if they were up to standard. off topic perhaps but it's the broken window theory.

Rosella, if McCarthy was part of a criminal organization, or was atlas familiar with some involved, the reward might not be worth his neck. Maybe he just wasn't a snitch?